Speaker 1: Hated that label.

Speaker 2: Oh really?

Speaker 1: I'm not an artist, I'm not an artist. To him, it meant you had to be this accomplished thing, so he didn't feel like he fit into that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that. I mean, I realize I'm not a great artist, if you will. Great means this and this and this in terms of success and all that stuff. But you know-

Speaker 1: Success in relation to whoever.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: Defining success.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but I look at other artists and I see their work and for me there's a level of transcendence that goes beyond like, wow, that's out there, that's beyond, like what I could have imagined doing, you know. And, so I have trouble maybe putting myself there or feeling somewhat, let's say, disappointed that I couldn't get there with my work? But, at the same time, I'm still very proud of calling myself an artist. Because I know what I do is very unique and unusual. Maybe in the whole grand scheme of things, it's not that unusual, but when I do, when I did those high end craft fairs, like the Smithsonian and the ACE and the Boston one and Philly, when I was there, I was very unique. There wasn't-

Speaker 3: That's why we're here.

Speaker 2: And I appreciate that.

Speaker 3: It's not 'cause I could find it in Georgia.

Speaker 2: I appreciate the fact that you are here. I'm quite amazed that you're doing this.

Speaker 1: So am I.

Speaker 2: It seems like a really interesting project that you are tasking yourself with. It must be fun zipping around like this.

Speaker 1: It's the best thing we've done, I mean, I'm 51, I think it's the best thing I can remember doing other than producing, making a person.

Speaker 3: Really excited about it.

Speaker 1: And what's interesting is there's some golden thread so far, we've done three so far, you're four of the interviews. So far there's some threads. The artist thing is always a topic that comes up. Do you consider yourself a ... no, I just, it's how I communicate, or it's how I do this, or I don't know about being an artist. And everybody always does this as if they're over there and we're all over here. And that's exactly what I want the book to address. Exactly what I want it to address is there's something that made you pick up wood and this came out of it, and this came out of it.

Speaker 2: Oh, yes ... I don't know if I'm an artist into something, it's not like something I was born to do, it's something I have to do. I have to do this.

Speaker 1: And that's another thread.

Speaker 2: It's like birthing, to some degree, because you've had this idea and all right, so if you want this idea to exist other than in your head, what are you gonna do about it? So, you know, you make things.

Speaker 1: Right, and so let's talk about ... and I have no prepared questions. We usually have conversations. I have them in my head. Because what I don't want to do is ask 11 artists the exact same questions and just fill it in like a questionnaire. This is just a flow of how you ... and the other thing I try to make sure we do is stay out of ... hi, baby ... is stay out of technique, like if-

Speaker 2: Stop it. Looney, stop.

Speaker 1: It's okay. I'd pick her up but I don't know if she's gonna get upset. I catch you guys slipping into your well, I do this and then I carve and I'm like, no, no, no, why? Why? And so, the first question, and this is always ... is you were how old when you picked up something and felt like ... like when did you pick up a piece of wood and see ... take me back to that.

Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because I was just thinking about that yesterday. I remember as a child, we had the basement in our big house, and my dad had a little shop down there. It had no dust collection system or way to ventilate, so to speak, but he would be down there doing fix up stuff or he'd even be making something. Not anything artistic, but just maybe something for, I don't know, maybe the house or the barn.

Speaker 1: Utility.

Speaker 2: Yeah, utility, exactly. And I was always interested in all the tools, and I remember seeing how he had organized all his nuts and bolts and he had just taken little jars, little jam jars, so he had all these little jars and screws in them. And I was looking at that and thinking about, you know, that's not a really great way to organize. It seems that, ... but then for some reason, I don't know where I had seen it or something, I said, Dad, hey, you should go look at these little drawer things. You can open up a drawer and there's all these things and you can put like all the different screws in and it would take up much less space and yada, yada. He looked at it and said that's a good idea. So he ended up getting the thing and putting it in the basement. Took care of I don't know how many shelves and replaced that. So I was really proud of the fact that I was able to kind of get that idea in his head.

Speaker 1: How old were you?

Speaker 2: Probably, I'm thinking ten-ish. Ten or twelve-ish, somewhere in that neighborhood. And coinciding with that and around that time, I ... okay, I wanna mess with tools and I wanna cut things and do stuff, so this was one of the first things I ever carved. It was just taken from some book and pattern, or whatever. But, yeah, then I realized that I enjoyed working with my hands. I imagine that I was always drawing stuff before that, in elementary school, you know, drawing dinosaurs, that kind of thing. So there was always that urge. And plus my mother was an artist of sorts, too. And she's the one that was ... it was frustrating for me to see that she could never get herself in the proper place where it just came naturally. She had to have everything, like her ducks in a row, or everything in a certain way, and then that would be the okay or the reason ... okay, now I have time where I can work.

Speaker 1: She had conditions.

Speaker 2: Taking the family, oh, the family's gotta come first or I gotta do this or this needs to be cleaned, the house, whatever. There was always an excuse for her not working. But in the early start of her marriage-

Speaker 1: Was that part of her fear of taking it on head on, as she put these things in front of it to keep her? Or do you really think-

Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know. It always puzzled me, like, Mom, you have some talent here, why don't you want to just get doing stuff? Now, her work was mostly working from photographs. She'd take a photograph and then she would copy it, so to speak. But it was still pretty impressive what she would do.

Speaker 1: And it was art to you.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah. I was like, wow, Mom, that's really good. But I could see from an outside point of view that, okay, that's great, you copy from a photograph, and that's it. But who knows? Maybe she would have gone in a different direction or something like that. It's not like she set up and she would do plein air paintings and stuff like that. But, anyways, that frustrated me to see her not continue with that. That's long term. But at the time, she obviously had some influence on me because I saw her create some things and so I wanted to create some things. So doing something with my hands has always been pretty much part of my life, whether it's drawing or making things out of wood, clay, whatever in art class. It's always been part of who I am.

Speaker 1: Did eventually your mother abandon trying?

Speaker 2: For the most part, yeah. I mean, it would be years. She'd set up ... she'd have a desk set up in the one of the upper bedrooms, and she had her drawing desk there, and she'd have her pencils all laid out, but nothing got done.

Speaker 1: So, even though that was external, it was inside. She just never had a thread of what I'm trying to do is get people to go I have it, no excuses, do it, express it, try it, pick up something, whittle something, draw something, paint something. And don't judge that out.

Speaker 2: So what I realized psychology was for my mother, it certainly inhibited her ability to create things. The last thing she kinda drew was she had taken a photo of her granddaughter, and she's probably, I don't know, 85, 84 at the time? And she was just trying to do a copy, and it certainly wasn't what she would have been able to do 20 years earlier or something like that. She would probably had been dead on with it, but you could see where now her ability to make judgments and be a little more accurate in terms of matching a photograph that wasn't there. But it was still pretty impressive, and I said, keep going, make something else. But then she'd look at it and nah, it's not very good and then [inaudible 00:09:58].

Speaker 1: And then what would become of it?

Speaker 2: It's funny, it's somewhere in one of my files somewhere and I gotta get it out and get it, because, you know, it's kind of half-finished. In thinking about it, it needs to be up on the wall in my daughter's house. Her granddaughter's home.

Speaker 1: So let's talk about that half-finish for a minute, because this is ... it went half-finished and you-

Speaker 2: Sorry, that's Looney. Stop.

Speaker 1: It's okay.And you noticed, right? You carried that a little bit. Something that you noticed, and however old you are now, you've brought that with you, that she had this talent, and this table was set up and it was all organized. And there's the parallel to your dad is making stuff, but it was utility. She wasn't. It was art, but they both had places to work. You are so prolific. I don't think there's an inch where there's not you.

Speaker 2: This was a white house.

Speaker 1: It's not now. But I'm wondering if that was something that is part of the DNA of your creating, is the fact that you saw this within your mom that didn't get fulfilled.

Speaker 2: I guess you could certainly draw that conclusion, absolutely. I don't wanna have 15 years go by, and you said you were gonna do this, this and this and you did nothing. No, no.

Speaker 1: I think it was just an observation that you probably ingested-

Speaker 2: Looney, stop. You gotta stop.

Speaker 1: [inaudible 00:11:33]

Speaker 2: No, somewhere up there.

Speaker 1: I'm more of an animal person than anything. Bring the lizard over. So you have Dad making utility and creative things and a workbench and someplace to work. And then you had mom with hers, and she was, you said, an artist. Which is interesting that you labeled her that ... then you and your ... you made this. And then, what from there? Was that a spark moment? Or was it just an oh, I enjoy this, and then you kind of-

Speaker 2: I don't know if I'd say it's a spark moment, but I just happened to have this. It's left over from when I was in high school or middle school, and I made other things. We had the shop classes in high school, so I would be building things and making stuff in there. I kept a sketch book. I was interested in art, like deciding on college, I went down the checklist of all the majors and I go, oh, can't work. What do I need to do? Oh, you gotta get a portfolio, so I put a portfolio together my senior year. It wasn't like I was well-trained or the art courses were all that good, but it was something I figured that, yeah, I could be decent at this. And then, of course, the practical part of me goes well, hmmmm, I probably won't be able to make money as an artist, so you should probably should do art teaching. And so I did art ed, did that, did the art ed. And I found that as I started my teaching career, I still want to make stuff. Painting, I got into painting.

All right, I want to take this further. If I'm gonna have to get a master's I wanna do it in doing something that I love. So I got a portfolio together and applied to different schools and was able to get into RIT, not known for its painting program, which was appropriate, because I really wasn't a very good painter. And in retrospect-

Speaker 1: RIT is?

Speaker 2: Rochester Institute of Technology. But it's a good school, and it was just a great, great place for me. Great experience. I loved it. And that was after five years of teaching high school and-

Speaker 1: Art.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, yep, and I was-

Speaker 1: Were you creating this whole time as well?

Speaker 2: I was. I was painting, primarily painting, nothing really sculptural, but painting. I was painting these kind of metaphoric images of paint tubes that took on these megalithic proportions on landscapes, and they would be communicating narratives and stuff like that. So [inaudible 00:14:44]. But anyways, the other schools I applied to, like Tufts, they had nothing to do with that. But RIT, you could tell when I got there and I saw the other people that had applied, and yeah, you could tell these were not probably as talented as people as the ones that went to Tufts and Tyler and Yale and all that kind of stuff. But, anyways, it was still home for me. It worked for me, because I got involved with the School for American Crafts in the wood department.

Speaker 1: Ah, so this was when you ... this was when-

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So there's a nice combination there. So the painting became more sculptural and then everything kind of became more sculptural after that. The painting ideas that were happening, the paintings were ... it's just Angela coming through the gate and the dogs have to relive like she's ...

Speaker 1: They're just letting you know.

Speaker 2: I should tell her that she can go in the studio if she wants, or maybe she already has, I don't know.

But the wood program, and then the other craft programs, like the ceramics there, that broadened my horizon and-

Speaker 1: So was it just anything with your hands? And it didn't matter the medium as much? Because you-

Speaker 2: Yeah, 'cause I loved clay. I loved working with clay. I wished I could have had the opportunity to do glass blowing. That didn't work out. But-

Speaker 1: Were you inhibited? So, take me from, you made this, just out of wood, and then you got into painting. Then you got into the some of the woodwork and all those other things, were you inhibited to try the next thing? Or did each new thing, or it just didn't matter?

Speaker 2: No, it didn't matter [inaudible 00:16:39]. I'm pretty creative, so I don't have any problems with materials, trying different things. I would say that certain things frustrate me, like watercolor is ... the most hellish thing to try to do.

Speaker 1: That's your [inaudible 00:17:05].

Speaker 2: Yeah, but when I see John Singer Sargent's use of watercolor and paint, and there's other watercolors, too, it's just ... like I mentioned before, it's transcendent. And you can appreciate that understand how beautiful it is that somebody can work so effortlessly within a medium. Because it's so much more immediate than, let's say, a sculpture, which requires carving out of a chunk of wood and stone. Clay may be a little bit different, because it's a little more plastic, so you can see things happening quickly. And there again, that could be very effortless, too, with the way they use their hands with the clay. But I'm fine with trying different things. I've just getting into a little bit of bronze casting. And that's a very technical kind of thing, too. What I found with the technical is like doing this kind of stuff, fine woodworking, although though that's not superfine woodworking, it's close. And the cabinet over there, that's another kind of fine woodworking, is that it requires a totally different mentality than something like this, or some of the other stuff that I do, like the reliquary series that ... I had one of those I kept.

Speaker 1: Yes, I love those.

Speaker 2: That's my favorite. With fine woodworking, I gotta be like this, with precision and stuff. That kind of drives me a little bit nuts. I appreciate it in some way, because you have to have this kind of very calm, I don't know, zen-like working atmosphere and approach, so that you take it step by step, approach by approach and a little more methodical. Where I just want to get there and get the things [inaudible 00:19:11], stuff like that, where it's a little more free. Less worried about-

Speaker 1: Restrictive.

Speaker 2: Like, oh, it's gotta be one and 65/128th of an inch.

Speaker 1: Which is interesting, because going back to what you told me, might not be a connection, but it's interesting to me is the utility with which your dad created in his space, and you wanted to organize it. But then your mom's was organized but didn't get visited. So all of that could come into your [crosstalk 00:19:49].

Speaker 2: My studio goes from this neatnik thing to just a complete mess like your coming here has created havoc in the household and in the shop because I've cleaned up.

Did you go into the shop?

Speaker 3: No, I didn't. I didn't feel like I should do that.

Speaker 2: Oh you should go in. You can go in. I don't know if you wanna go in there-

Speaker 1: I think I wanna take him-

Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do it together. That's fine, that's fine. No, I was just getting some of the outside shots.

Speaker 2: I didn't know if you wanted to get in there so you see that, and then decide if you wanna spend more time there, here, whatever, I don't know.

Speaker 1: Yeah ... hi, sweetheart ... No ... so, painful thing, but I wanna ask you about it, just so we can put it in the context, is Ross.

Speaker 2: Oh, right.

Speaker 1: How old were you?

Speaker 2: I was 16.

Speaker 1: 16.

Speaker 2: That had a big impact on my life, and it still does. Every day ... there's not a day that goes by that I don't think about it. I'm living for him and for me.

Speaker 1: Is some of that ... it's just in your DNA it's in your art, or is there-

Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I've thought about that, too, like you never really ... it's like it's never ... I never really got to know him or the person that he was becoming or was. We were always kinda disconnected because four years apart growing up, he's into other things and out. I was just the annoying baby brother. It took me awhile to realize that I'm still living my life to keep his memory alive, too, so he's part of me. I wonder what kind of person he would have been. I don't think about it too much when I'm creating works of art, it's not like-

Speaker 1: That's part of the makeup of you, but it's not your driving-

Speaker 2: I think it's more like, just like the idea of every day's a gift and that typical thing. Don't waste the day.

Speaker 1: I hear you. You never get this time again.

Speaker 2: Right, right. But it's not something you can ever get over.

Speaker 1: No, and it does just kind of become, and speaking from my experience from it, is you're still you, but now you're you with this. It's just part of who you ... just part now of something. And there's an awareness, good or bad, that you just have. Everything's just a little different because you have that. You carry it. And we say it's not what happens, it's how you carry it and the weight of things. So, I'm still, it's only a year-

Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. And it's so mixed emotions with the suicide, and then still, I still don't know all the facts ... the police report wouldn't allow me to have all the facts, and so that leaves me to wonder, is there really something else going on. But most of the things pointed to that it would have been suicide, and it fit with how my brother was so volatile in his anger and his ... would lash out and not think and be reflective, so it seemed to be that was the case. And then it leaves me, like I said, with this sadness, but also this tremendous anger. Why?

Speaker 1: That's the question.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, so it's why? Why would you do that? It's just so stupid and I'm just angry at you, you know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1: I'm asking myself that, because ... but I also have to answer it to an 11-year-old. So that's even ... because she tangibly asks me why. I'm thinking of it more metaphorically why and she's like, no, why?

Speaker 2: And then I would say that, absolutely do therapy, something-

Speaker 1: Since day one, she's been-

Speaker 2: That's good.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: That's the thing that our family did not do, and there's consequences that played out with my sister and the relationship between her and the parents and then, even with the way my mom proceeded, and my dad, and it was just, I don't know if I'd say it was a mess, but it wasn't ... but that was a different time. This was the 50s, and you didn't talk about stuff, and you worried about what your neighbors thought, and that's how you conducted your business.

Speaker 1: And therapy had a stigma back then.

Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1: It was much different.

Speaker 2: I don't blame my parents. My parents did a very good job. They made some poor choices, and they suffered for it, but overall, I think they did the best that they could do, or they thought they could do. I don't hold them too accountable.

Speaker 1: They do that themselves.

Speaker 2: My daughter ... my sister does, rather.

Speaker 1: There's always that if I would've ... one thing I did want to bring around and ask and then we'll kind of close this topic and maybe move into the studio or something because we want to see you in your natural habitat, is with that, when I was reading your statement, you talk about wanting to make sense or make connections or kind of, put things together. And I'm wondering if that's one of the things that subconsciously drives, is you're looking for that reasoning or that why. Because you, from what it said, and maybe I got the wrong thing out of it, I don't want to put words, but I just-

Speaker 2: I think it's my view of the universe and how it's shaped certainly is reflected in what I'm searching for. That's why I think some of the stuff goes from very cerebral and maybe kind of conceptual aspects to stuff that is just idiotic. Like, there's the piece on there that I just knocked off in a few days, really pushing more toward to the absurd, which is the Faggot Brain Needle Dick, and it's a play on words and stuff, and politically incorrect, but it's just descriptive of what it is. And that in a nutshell how I kinda view the universe. There's so many things in it that makes sense and then there's so much of it that doesn't make any sense, and it just seems like, what is this all about? That's the bigger kind of picture. But, at the same time, I take a very existential viewpoint in that I'm responsible for me and my universe and that's the way I look at it.

Speaker 1: So, is what you create personal, universal? Do you want, like when you make it, do you have a purpose?

Speaker 2: I think it is personal, but I certainly would hope that it has universal qualities. And yes, some things, I guess maybe in the overall scheme of things, are maybe not as successful as others because of that. And then I'm still making things that have ... they're just fun things, they're not looking to have any kind of bigger ... like, I wanted to create something that was me, but that was something that the average guy could maybe purchase at one of these craft fairs. And I couldn't come up with anything for awhile, and then I finally came up the with the MoonBee kind of thing through my sketch books, and then put it into three dimensional form and I was like, wow, this is really fun.

Speaker 1: And that's why we're here, I saw him and-

Speaker 2: And you know, out of this came Moonboy Dreaming, he's in the back room back there, the original.

Speaker 1: Was that with the-

Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like a [inaudible 00:27:58], yeah, he's in the back there.

Speaker 1: I want to meet him.

Speaker 2: So then he came from the Moonboy Dreaming, and I could have done a whole series of those, and I didn't. And that's a problem in plus, it's like, I could just keep making the reliquary series. I could just keep making them. I could keep making this kind of stuff, and I could keep making the furniture stuff.

Speaker 1: Monty Python cabinet?

Speaker 2: What's that?

Speaker 1: The Monty Python cabinet?

Speaker 2: I could keep making, yeah, I don't know, not so much that, but you know that was a [inaudible 00:28:34]. But yeah, something like Monty Python shaped my life to some degree because of their absurdist view of the universe, I would have to say. They were certainly influential as a kid growing up. I watched that show religiously as a kid growing up. But, yeah, my problem is that I get all these ideas and then I don't necessarily resolve them.

Speaker 1: Is resolve-

Speaker 2: Like flesh them out. Really stay with the reliquary. Really, where can you take that? Where can it go? Take that one idea of these places, these special places for these figurative things and see what you can do with it. Really flesh it out and make 30, 40, 50, 60 of them.

Speaker 1: So what makes you start and then stop? Do you have an idea?

Speaker 2: Because I get bored. [crosstalk 00:29:30]. Gotta get on to the next idea.

Speaker 1: That was a kindred laugh, right there.

Speaker 2: I want to get on to maybe the next idea, and I guess, you know, where I feel like maybe I have resolved the idea in my head.

Speaker 1: I asked you that when you did commissions. Would you go back and do ... because I didn't know-

Speaker 2: I'm not thrilled about it, but at the same time, I've come to some kind of peace with the MoonBees and doing the Moon babies and some of the other pieces that I have, just because I like the idea of something of mine out there in somebody's hands. And if it means, okay, this is one way where I can make a number of pieces a little more frequently, as boring as that might be, to some degree-

Speaker 3: Palate cleansing?

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the other thing is that it becomes a meditative knid of thing, doing multiples, and I multi-task, so if I'm doing the MoonBees, I'm watching some movie or something like that. But I like the idea of having my children out there in somebody's home. It's out there and now it's got its own life so to speak. I think that's fun.

Speaker 1: I'll send you a Christmas card as he grows.

Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. He's got that same little personalized thing to help you love me. And I write, when I send them out, I probably, I don't know for Artful Home whether their numbers I've got are good enough. They still keep me around, so I guess they're decent enough. They put me in the catalog. I figure they want 50 to a hundred sold, but I think I've only made about 30. But it's a hello, whatever, and you have a Moonboy. Please love him and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: Right. Numbered. Because especially people that are buying out of that, that would make sense to me, to get that like with a, oh that's not a mass produced, it is-

Speaker 2: I mean, it is and it isn't. It's not like mass produced, because mass produced to me means something way up in the-

Speaker 1: Factories?

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's not. It's all handmade. I don't have anybody helping me. I don't want anybody helping me.

Speaker 1: Everybody in the world also can't come and sit with you and do it, so that's how, that's the interpreter, or so to speak. Which is interesting. So let's talk about that for one second. You have Artful Home, is that what it's called, Artful Home? And you're in there. Then you have you, commissioned work, that knid of thing. Is that a, you know, who are these people to curate that magazine? Who am I to curate this book and say these are artists that, I'm not saying anybody's not. My whole point is everybody is and just, yeah. But it's interesting. There must be something, because people pick certain pieces of it, so it must be that this was, again, the purity of the communication or whatever it is that you put into it, must be exuding out for someone to see it and feel it. So it's interesting what people pick and don't. I'd love to meet the person who does the Artful Home curation and go, what do you look for?

Speaker 2: Yeah, Sally, yeah, she's neat. She found me at the craft fairs.

Speaker 1: I found you online through that. But we know people say ... because I was looking all over the country. It was like this guy, this guy, but I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you. Because I don't have a trained eye. It was just ... but it's interesting. Everyone said yes except for one person. Everyone. And that single sheet I sent out, there was something in it that all of you went, okay. Or it might have just been that you wanted publicity if it sent anywhere. But I think there was something.

Speaker 2: No, I think that what I saw was first, a little warning thing goes up, but then no, she's doing this for her own kind of enjoyment, her own inquisitiveness, and I didn't think, like, got a sense no, there's nothing phony going on here. I'm just flattered that someone's interested in my work and that's nice. Not just superficially, but really interested.

Speaker 1: Yeah, very. Especially, like I said, when I read your ... this is someone who's-

Speaker 2: It doesn't come along very often, to be honest with you.

Speaker 1: Right. People never-

Speaker 2: Because everyone's doing something.

PART 1 OF 5 ENDS [00:34:04]

Artist: Not very often, to be honest with you.

Tina: Right, people never-

Artist: Everyone's doing something, so-

Tina: Have you look at your web ... Well, I think they're all trying to figure it out. I think everybody's trying to get where all of you that I've talked to are.

Which is, I'm thinking something, and I know I have these: my hands and my head. How do I say what I ... Because you know what most of us are ill-equipped with? Words, that's it.

That can't be the only way, right? 'Cause that's restrictive by whoever made them up, so there's gotta be other ways. And you guys have found other ways, and so you have this ...

Artist: To that thing of I ... getting out there, I'm not a good businessperson, which is typical of artists for the most part-

Tina: Yes, it is.

Artist: I'm also not a good self-promoter. I'm content. I'm content with making a smaller chunk of change. I haven't done a craft fair in seven years, because I like being at home.

I don't have to pay up-front fees, but they take half, that's not great. And I'm also in a position, too, where my wife works and that's the safety net. But I also do basketball and coach, and I have other loves.

I'm very lucky in that. So I don't ... My kids are out, their college is paid for. I don't have to push hard to make numbers and make money. Mortgage is paid. I got all ducks kind of in a row before I quit my teaching job 20 years ago. Not 20, 17 years ago.

But part of me does wish that I would be a better businessperson and a better promoter so that ... yeah, and maybe some of my stuff gets out there in a more fruitful way.

Tina: Great, so you said something about a successful piece. What does make a piece successful, to you?

To you, and then in general, 'cause there's two different-

Artist: I think a successful piece for me would be one that I'm not sure what it means or what it's saying. I have a general idea, but I'm not sure exactly what it's saying.

There's a bit of mystery about it, you know? Where I'm not clear. And I like that, and that's what I look for in other works of art, where I can continue to have a conversation with that piece from day to day or down the line.

It's not just-

Tina: Yeah, like you can't take it all in and be done like I've seen-

Artist: Yeah, you know. That kind of idea. So that to me makes a successful piece. And then one that I would think the way it's done technically, where it just ... everything seemed to work, whether it's colors, forms, texture.

All those things just came together and it's like, yeah that really works. This reliquary piece over here, that piece is what I would say is a successful piece, because it has all the element stuff and technical stuff works perfectly with the idea that it communicates or expresses.

So I'm very pleased with that. Most of the other of those pieces, I would say, were successful.

Tina: They did feel ... When I was looking, they did feel different from your other works. They didn't feel like they had-

Artist: Yeah. And they're less ... There are some figurative elements, perhaps, like in let's say the outside. But the inside uses ... definitely the piece inside is definitely figurative.

I mean, these are figurative, but then they also allude to other things. A tool, a weapon, a device, that kind of thing-

Tina: A backbone.

Artist: Well, yeah. And the vertebrae is throughout, all that kind of ... the bones, that kind of stuff. And that's why I love them, they're multi-leveled, but yet it's still very simple [crosstalk 00:38:18].

Tina: Your work has a lot of open and inside, open and inside, which I think is congruent with what you say, where you like to try to figure things out. And you do have something in there that says I like to ... When I don't have it figured out, that's more interesting to me, to create something that I don't have figured out than what I do.

Artist: Right. And you're right, I do like the idea of hidden things. You're opening, you're revealing. I've done any number of pieces that are like that.

You know, the "Key Keepers" used to be ... Before I was doing those [crosstalk 00:38:57].

Tina: I was trying to get an idea of scale on those.

Artist: Yeah, these were done in the late ... This one was done probably in the late 90s, before I quit my teaching job. I'd done a series of these. This used to have squishy nipples, but the rubber dried up.

Tina: It happens with these [crosstalk 00:39:16].

Artist: My brain is all ... I'm gonna make these interesting pieces, but they have to be practical in order to sell. You can't just have them, just regular pieces of sculpture.

No one's gonna buy them as a regular sculpture, you can't charge that much because they've gotta be practical. You gotta be able to do something, "Oh, I've always wanted to have something where you put your keys."

Okay, so I'll make a key keeper and then I put my keys ... All right, so it's gotta be an open space inside. And that whole idea of opening up and then, oh what's the goodie on the inside?

In this case, it's this. But I've done other pieces where it had something else in there. Okay, it doesn't have to be a key holder.

I even remember somebody saying that to me at the [Creper 00:39:57]. "Why do you have to have keys in them? Why can't you have something else or nothing or whatever?"

I go, "Okay, interesting thought." So anyways, that's the key keeper.

Tina: Yes. Because there was some other ones that looked like they were smaller in size, but it must've just been the way I was looking at them-

Artist: There are some smaller ones [crosstalk 00:40:11]. Yeah, there's ones like this. Then there's other ones that are probably about ... This is probably about the biggest, there might be another one that maybe was a little bit bigger.

Tina: I'm just starting to understand this, and I love it.

Artist: Yeah. That's a great quote-

Tina: It's one of those things, when you're young, you read the words.

Artist: Right.

Tina: And then when you're older, you see the words. I love that.

Artist: Yeah. Well, that goes the whole macro/microcosm and the whole universe thing, like it goes beyond ... How can you wrap your head around the size of the universe? It's just incomprehensible.

Tina: I agree.

Artist: So you're ready to go to the studio?

Tina: Yes.

Artist: Okay, so make sure you get to see that stuff.

Speaker 4: Do you mind if I go in your bedroom again.

Artist: No, of course not.

Tina: I love it, you know ...

Artist: Oh, this is a guy named ... I met at one of the ... is Derek Weisberg, who makes [crosstalk 00:41:01]. Yeah, he's a ceramicist but he made this out of wood.

My wife calls him "Snot Boy," 'cause I guess he put some kind of clear glaze over here, so it looks like he's snot coming down his nose and stuff-

Tina: It does.

Artist: Yeah, so she calls him "Snot Boy," but I just-

Tina: He looks like he's peaceful after turmoil.

Artist: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, that whole ... the misshapen head and [crosstalk 00:41:30]. So obviously, that's the weird stuff that I'm attracted to.

Right next to the Frank Lloyd Wright.

Tina: As the world goes like that, though, right?

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: I mean, same way as the universe.

Artist: Yup.

Tina: I think about that. I was at the beach recently, and I was looking at a bridge. It's a bridge I've looked at a million times, but I went, "Today's the first day I've seen the bridge."

I wanted ... I appreciated it. It takes a while.

Artist: This is my family. This is a nuclear family here, so we have myself, my wife, my daughter, Zoe, and my son, Zharko.

Zoe used to be out in the yard at the old place, with the ... actually, with the wind and stuff blowing, but it could not handle high-speed wind and so I said that won't work, just bust apart ...

Tina: How did you meet her?

Artist: Through a, like a computer dating thing, back in the old days when it was like with sheets of 8.5 x 11 paper.

Speaker 4: I wanted to hear this. Did you just ask how he met his wife? Oh wait, and what was the answer?

Artist: Through like a computer dating thing-

Speaker 4: Really?

Artist: Yeah, but it was in the original ... when it was the first, way before the Internet ... you know [crosstalk 00:42:41]

It was like 1989, so it was like you'd fill out a sheet and then they'd collect these sheets and they'd go through and they'd grab five or six and then send you those. Then you could ... it was pretty bad, but it wasn't that bad, 'cause I met my wife so ...

Speaker 4: Yeah, worked for you.

Tina: Were you full-fledged you when you met her?

Artist: Yeah, pretty much. Oh, yeah.

Tina: And she's like, "That's it, I'm in. I like it"?

Artist: I think so, yeah. I think so. We dated, but we were also at ... We want to breed, I mean we were both ... We want to breed [crosstalk 00:43:19].

I mean, I was 35 when I got married.

Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.

Tina: Right.

Artist: Biological clock, as Marisa Tomei would say, was ticking. We were both-

Speaker 4: I need one more shot here. I'm gonna meet you guys out here, I guess.

Tina: Yup. How did the kids feel about you doing all that crap, or was it just they're so used to it from birth that it wasn't-

Artist: Doing it-

Tina: All your art and stuff-

Artist: Oh, I think they just took it for granted. It was like, oh wow, that's pretty cool. That's just what Dad does. Which is fine.

But like Zoe I think ... I think my son was very self-conscious because he would ... It didn't come easy for him. He wasn't good at drawing, let's say, or he wasn't good at expressing himself so to speak with his hands

I think he, I don't know. I wouldn't say it threatened ... But it just wasn't comfort. There wasn't a comfort factor.

But Zoe was always creating stuff [crosstalk 00:44:26].

Tina: It wasn't safe and soft at home, it was-

Artist: He was different. Thank God, I'm glad he's different.

But Zoe is always doing something creative ... and voracious reader. So yeah, the art thing was fine. She went through high school taking art classes and all that kind of stuff. "Might go do something at an art school" when we'd do our art ed [crosstalk 00:44:52]

Tina: Oh she's ... Oh, wow. So she's .. it's funny-

Artist: She's teaching now, she's finished up her third year. She's doing master's work right now.

Speaker 4: Your daughter? [crosstalk 00:45:01]

Artist: It's funny 'cause it's taking me back to my RIT thing, 'cause you can see where she has ... It was just like me, where it's kind of raw there, but not really ... explored the medium.

She likes ceramics, far enough to where her work is really quality, for lack of a better term. Where she needs to get ... Okay, I really need to spend some time and get exposed to some other things and see what's really going on to get yourself to that point.

'Cause it's been at one level, now you need to push it so you can get up to here. So I can see that it's the same place I was. I'm thinking I'm pretty hot stuff here-

Tina: Something's here.

Artist: But you get exposed and you realize, no you're not hot stuff. You got a long way to go, kid.

Tina: Right, but that's a great point. That's a great point to get to is when you-

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: So it's interesting, so she, like you maybe ... You questioned there for your art, to try to think. And he questions the art. He seems like he's ...

Artist: I don't know, he just wasn't interested.

Tina: So it's irrelevant to him.

Artist: Yeah, kinda. Yeah. But I think he appreciates it, you know now he appreciates it-

Tina: Right, it's just not-

Artist: At the time, I think he felt threatened, so he wouldn't want to express himself because, oh Dad does this and Dad ... But I was never like, "You stink, you can't draw. That's not what it looks like, what's that supposed to be?"

None of that, I didn't do any of that-

Tina: Right, but he-

Artist: I'm too smart for that-

Tina: Of course, because you had taught, so you knew.

Artist: But I would encourage him to do that. We would kind of joke ... He would even joke ... I had took the ceramics class in high school and he would come home with these lumpy looking things [crosstalk 00:46:51]

Speaker 4: I've seen all those things. It's a paperweight.

Artist: But you know we ... Hey, it's in the bedroom on my shelf down there, so we still kept them and stuff like that.

Tina: Did you get his first carving? It's on the table in there. Can you bring it with us in the studio, is that okay?

Artist: Yeah, that's fine.

Tina: The little bear-

Speaker 4: Do you have any of your daughter's that she's done?

Artist: You mean like-

Speaker 4: You said she was into doing ceramics and stuff?

Artist: Yeah, I do. Oh there's a ... Did you notice that there's a-

Speaker 4: Yes, I saw that. Yeah. Elizabeth Frank.

Artist: That was a commission I got from my wife, from Liz-

Tina: Isn't that funny?

Speaker 4: Yeah [crosstalk 00:47:32] I know-

Tina: That I didn't know you guys knew each other and I was like-

Speaker 4: You also hadn't said it though too-

Tina: It's just interesting. Right.

Artist: So this is a bowl she made for me, it's a surreal bowl. This is what I have my cereal in, the surreal ... So it has the eyes-

Speaker 4: Oh, the eyes. That's so cool.

Tina: It's funny, my daughter made a monster teapot ... a zombie teapot. So it's like a zombie face and then his head comes off-

Artist: Then there's some other ceramic things [crosstalk 00:48:02] bringing this out.

Tina: Yes, that's very important. It's the first thing he carved-

Speaker 4: Oh, I didn't realize that-

Tina: Right, these are-

Artist: I'm guessing this one's something that's leftover ... I don't know if this one was the first thing that I carved [crosstalk 00:48:15].

I'm all about the accuracy. But I'm looking at it, and I'm amazing that I was able to do this, because this is the way the grain goes. So you know wood with grain, it'll snap real easy one way, and won't snap ...

So these things right along here, this should snap and it did. I can see it broke there. I'm amazed I was able to carve it without it breaking all over the place, particularly on the legs.

Tina: You were careful back then.

Artist: I had probably dulled tools, like I didn't know much about it. Probably cut myself four or five times in the process-

Tina: So you didn't know. You weren't trained-

Artist: Oh, no. No, I just did it by whatever I had learned from let's say reading or maybe what my dad maybe told me, "Hey, you got this. Use that, try this."

Tina: Do that. Yeah.

Artist: But as I grew, I got more familiar with other tools and so forth. One thing leads to another, and then you talk with other people and professionals and you learn all kinds of different stuff.

Tina: That's not dissimilar to what Liz was telling us, actually, about hers where she just ...

Artist: You have to stay. You stay, Looney-

Tina: Picked up a tool and just started using it and it just ... Woop!

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: This is beautiful out here, I mean peaceful and just ...

Artist: Yeah, yeah. Not bad. Where do you ... is Decatur a pretty big city?

Tina: Yeah, it's in Atlanta, really.

Artist: Oh, it's right outside Atlanta, one of the suburbs?

Tina: It's kinda ... in a weird way, it's in the middle of Atlanta.

Artist: Oh, okay.

Tina: But it just has its own city designation, which just means they can charge us more taxes, but yeah.

Artist: That's a piece of my friend's ... he's a sculptor friend, he did that piece with found stone. Had that in the front of my shop to honor him.

Tina: And tell us about the rocks with the chair on the top?

Artist: I started that the day the Towers were bombed. I mean, I didn't start it because oh the Towers were bombed. I mean, I was actually just starting to lay the stone out down there.

Then I took a break, and then like I'm listening to the news and the Towers got bombed.

And anyways, but I finished that piece [crosstalk 00:50:33] and it was really nice. It was more like this little pile right here, it was nice and smooth and everything, but I didn't ... I just put them on the ground.

I didn't make a footing or foundation. So every winter, summer, the frost heave, that'll just push the stones all over. So now it's falling apart, but it originally had this antenna going up, kinda like this one, but I used a sapling.

Then I striped it with sheet metal and my idiot neighbor ripped it down and threw it away or stole it, whatever.

Speaker 4: What!

Artist: So anyways, he did that. I'm sure of it, I didn't see him, but he did so many other things in the course of the years here. But that's a whole other thing, we're not gonna get into that.

Tina: We could, 'cause it sounds fun [crosstalk 00:51:16]. I'll send him a free copy of the book.

Artist: But because of him, actually, it led to the chair, 'cause he got rid of that and he stole, he ripped the tube out ... 'Cause I had a PVC pipe tube that was down in the rock so that if that sapling had rotted or whatever, I could take that out and put another one in-

Tina: Put another one in-

Artist: Well, he ripped that out. The rocks tumbled and I couldn't' get anything back in there, so-

Tina: That's somewhat vicious.

Artist: It's stupid. So I had some chairs down there that I was just giving away, and then I'm like, "huh." So I put a chair up on top, you know? And then it looked cool-

Tina: It'd be funny if you started making a totem pole while [crosstalk 00:51:53].

Artist: So the chair looked cool and so it was, ever since. And then so people ... I put it there originally as a way of telling people it's by the stone pile.

Tina: Right, right.

Artist: And of course I love Andy Goldsworthy and so-

Tina: Ah! I was gonna say, I have a book ... When you showed me that, I was like, there you go ...

Artist: Yeah, it's just an Andy Goldsworthy wannabe thing. Well, that's the thing. I told you about Storm King. If you had another day where you could [crosstalk 00:52:22] you would do Storm King, 'cause Andy Goldsworthy has his "Wall That Went for a Walk."

Speaker 4: Cool.

Artist: So it wraps around all these trees, goes down. The hill goes into the pond and then comes up-

Speaker 4: Oh, and it comes out-

Artist: Onto the other side.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Artist: Had his Scottish guys over here in America for I don't know how many months building this thing. So that's there, amongst other amazing works of art. That's only like 30 minutes away from there.

And then Beacon, Dia:Beacon is right here also.

Tina: Yeah, you sent us both of those-

Artist: Right, and if you look on their sites. They took the old Nabisco factory, and now it's a contemporary art, got the minimalist, conceptual stuff. Sol LeWitt, Richard Serra has massive pieces in there. It's incredible, so those two things are right here-

Tina: Yeah, did you see the one person we did add or I ... Dorothy O'Connor does these really interesting-

Artist: Yeah, I saw ... you're right, yes I did look at her work, yes. And where is she located?

Tina: She's in Atlanta, too.

Artist: Oh, okay.

Tina: Which is interesting, because I was just talking to somebody, they said, "Oh, you don't have an installation-type art" in ...

Artist: So this is my studio. I'm just getting some mass-production stuff laid out for the ... They're putting one [inaudible 00:53:44] baby in the catalog, so I gotta get about 50 of those done.

Speaker 4: Where'd you get your lathe? That's amazing.

Artist: I quietly took it from the high school where I was [crosstalk 00:53:55].

Tina: I love it.

Artist: They were getting rid of it, they were getting rid of it and I went in-

Speaker 4: It's beautiful and it's a Delta and it's a ... Oh, God.

Artist: They actually were. I didn't steal it [crosstalk 00:54:03]. They were getting rid of it, and so I ... And there it is-

Tina: Is this relic of Dad from the-

Artist: Yeah [crosstalk 00:54:15].

Speaker 4: That's awesome.

Artist: So a bit of a mess for my keeping-

Tina: Yeah.

Artist: Kind of the wood area. I have little spaces. I have a little metal [inaudible 00:54:27] thing there. Nothing that's like ... you know, I'm a jack of all trades and master of nothing, basically.

Like I told you I was getting into-

Tina: [inaudible 00:54:41]

Artist: I was getting into some bronze-

Tina: Yes.

Artist: So I created these clay ones, originals are over there. 'cause I had created this particular guy right here out of clay. I wanted to see what I could do with making the bowl bigger and then bronze.

Now I'm at the patina phase, where I've got to figure out how I want to try to finish it. I tried one patina, but-

Tina: Great [crosstalk 00:55:06].

Speaker 4: Where do you pour these? Is there a facility that-

Artist: I have a furnace that I was-

Tina: Can I turn that off, only because I won't be able to hear you?

Artist: Yeah, sorry.

Tina: I love that.

Artist: I joyfully took the furnace from the high school I used to teach at, because they were getting rid of it. So I have that, so I have a place where I can heat and melt bronze, aluminum, that kind of thing.

Speaker 4: Wow. I used to do that. I miss that. So much fun-

Artist: Yeah, you did it? Yeah. I'm using that ... I was using ceramic shell, I don't know if you were doing the ceramic shell method or ...

Speaker 4: I was doing the plaster and the mixture and making the molds and doing the wax.

Artist: Yeah, and then you melt the wax out?

Speaker 4: Then you melt the wax out.

Artist: Yeah, same thing. Try to make shells similar. Yeah, pretty much. Like over there, that white thing with the pink?

Speaker 4: Yeah, yes. Yeah.

Artist: That's the rubber mold for this guy.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Artist: This guy's Hitchcock. That's his name.

Speaker 4: That's funny.

Artist: And this is Matisse, and this is Brock.

Tina: Oh, that's right.

Artist: Brock and then-

Tina: Matisse.

Artist: And then Hitchcock, the director.

Tina: Those names alone.

Artist: Yeah, so.

Tina: When you find your raw materials, do you have it in your head what you want or do the materials dictate, or how does that happen where you bring raw materials into ... Like the sticks over there, or the wood that's sitting there. How does it go from that to that-

Artist: I think it's more like idea comes first. And then whatever materials are gonna work and I just gravitate more toward the wood because it's a little more immediate.

That's part of-

Tina: Oh, that's-

Artist: That's "The Philosopher's Journey." I still have this piece. These are like two pieces that I have left from years ago that I obviously I wish I could sell.

Tina: I can't imagine. That's not like a bidding war kind of crazy-

Artist: Yeah, it's hard. I had one chance, where in retrospect, I wish I would've sold it, but I wanted so much money for it and it was more than this guy was willing to pay.

It's a hard piece to sell, 'cause it's huge [crosstalk 00:57:28]. Yeah, there's a delight in ... it's just lights, and I'll turn the ... let me turn the lights off, you get a little bit of flavor.

If it's dark, the stage lighting is just beautiful.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Artist: You really get a sense of the stage set.

Tina: My favorite part of it, honestly is the-

Artist: Did you look at the movie?

Tina: No.

Artist: Oh, okay. There's a little movie online [crosstalk 00:57:57].

Tina: No, I would have, we just didn't-

Artist: Now you can see it in person [crosstalk 00:58:00] Oh yeah, so the lights are on. So this is called "The Philosopher's Journey," or its original title is "Make God Dance."

An absurdist play in seven acts, and the seven arts refers to ... this opens up, you're welcome to open it up.

Speaker 4: Oh, wow. That's awesome [crosstalk 00:58:33].

Artist: So there's seven different heads, seven different sets of genitalia. They're all on plates, and then there's a kneeling pad.

The ritual aspect of it would be the kneeling pad come out, and then you would kneel down, Tina [crosstalk 00:59:00].

And then there are pulls here. So when you pull, you control.

Tina: You gotta do this. He looks at you.

Speaker 4: Making him do a funny dance, Tina. That's cool [crosstalk 00:59:31].

Tina: Wow. So you can't tell ... There is ...

Artist: You can treat him roughly, so if you wanted ... In other words, you can be pulling on these things real quick and fast, snapping them back and forth. Exactly. He's meant to be "Make God Dance." [crosstalk 01:00:01].

So where adults are inhibited, little kids will go and have their way so that they use, 'cause I tried to work it so ... Only problem with a little kid is maybe they're changing the stuff, 'cause you can ... What you can do is you simply can unwind this and you can pop a different head in or a different set of genitalia.

The idea is-

Speaker 4: I noticed ... Where were those things I was just touching. What are they-

Artist: These are so that if you wanted to, let's say, oh, I want it to be in this position so I can take that-

Speaker 4: Ahhh.

Artist: And it will stay there, so you can kinda freeze maybe a pose-

Tina: There's so much in this. So where did this come from-

Artist: It came from that whole idea about the absurdity of how I view the universe. It goes to the question of, did man create God or did God create man?

So I was just playing with that idea. That's all. And then I also wanted to reduce any pretentiousness, like man thinks he's so great. Let's just go to his baser needs, so the genitals are all reflective of just a base nature of the idea of being human, man, or whatever.

Any kind of elevated concepts or thinking that he'd have, you know you're barking up the wrong tree. You're really just an animal.

Speaker 4: Yes.

Artist: So those kind of ideas are part of it. And then, this whole thing, like, "Oh no, I'm God. I'm going to make you dance." So the different heads were of God ... This was, oh how did I refer to it? God is omnipotent. I am God, all work and no play makes God a dull boy. That kind of thing.

This was God is the devil. And this one, I kind of got from a Tom Waits lyric, which said, "There's no such thing as God, that's just the devil when he's drunk."

And then each one has a matching set of genitalia. I think I might actually ... I'm looking at this and I might wanna re-do it, because it was really meant just ... The original idea was just to have the round yellow happy face thing.

Tina: Yes.

Artist: That simple, you know that kind of thing.

Tina: Yup.

Artist: What is that called, is there a name for it? A smiley fa- ... I don't know.

Tina: Not that I know of-

Artist: But anyway, so have that, with yellow. But I didn't like the idea of it, so I made it into this kind of twisted thing.

Part of me wishes I should've made it so it was more like an advertisement kind of thing.

Tina: Oh, right. Like the marketing of all-

Artist: Yeah. And this was God is just like this energy source and power and made up of neutrons and stuff. It was just wire with empty on the inside and a sodder of stuff like-

Tina: Or not a solid thing, it's like energy-

Artist: Yeah, exactly. More of a spiritual energy kind of thing-

Tina: I'm probably more here, because if we're all made of carbon and that's the simplest element and then we're operated through electric currents, when you die, that electricity has to go somewhere so ... I go a little-

Speaker 4: It goes into the collective energy-

Artist: Right, so I was exploring all those kind of ideas in these heads and then just God ... just a regular Tom, Dick, Harry kind of guy. Nothing special.

Tina: Did you ever see the kids-

Artist: And of course God as woman.

Tina: Did you ever see "Coraline"?

Artist: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Tina: There's something about this that reminds me of "Coraline," 'cause there's this ... perfect is over here, but that's not really perfect, you want to go to the imperfect. I don't know, there's just something about it that reminds me of ...

Artist: Well, you know I do like ... People say you have Tim Burton things, and yeah I guess I would. 'Cause there's "Mummy Boy," and so ...

Tina: And Tim Burton is ...

Speaker 4: A genius.

Tina: Yeah. I think he's a genius [crosstalk 01:04:06] I think he questions a lot-

Artist: I was gonna do a series of these pieces, but I didn't sell this one, so I'm not gonna make another one ... It was a big investment on this, a three month ...

Speaker 4: That's it?

Artist: Yeah, three months. Yup.

Tina: So did you have it formed in your head and came in and executed or did you have-

Artist: Kind of, yeah. But it would change, but with something like this, it's not as organic growing as like with working with clay. You have to pre-plan, you have to engineer. You have to-

Speaker 4: Yeah, that's why ... When you said three months, I was like, that's incredible.

Artist: Right, so you have to have the extra combination of that ... Two sides of me with the engineering and the wood-making, furniture-making, but then also the more of the sculptural thing-

Tina: But everything is ... To me, everything's thought through. Look at ... Then the hands, and then the words here, and then you have this detail and this detail. The engineering ... Like I can't. Three months?

Artist: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: Slow thinker, fast worker?

Tina: It takes you a while to think of-

Artist: Even more impressive is that each of these strips has to be ... First it has to get laid out and [inaudible 01:05:20] wood in place, then all the screws have to come out. Then it has to get two coats of paint and sanded and then reattached.

It's gotta be fitted first-

Tina: Right, and then you have to take it back off-

Artist: Yeah, each piece is specially fitted. They're tapered and they're not all like just parallel kind of things-

Tina: No, I noticed that. Often I was wondering even, is it like one piece that you did grooves. No, it's separate pieces [crosstalk 01:05:46].

Artist: Put the lights on again. You're welcome to open up "The Temptress," that's the other piece on the wall.

Tina: Wow. There's your chair.

Speaker 4: Lot of reoccurring themes, for sure.

Tina: So what were you questioning? Tell me about your brain on that one?

Artist: On this guy?

Tina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Artist: On this-

Tina: Girl?

Artist: Oh, yeah. Well, the first one I had done in this series was called "The Keeper," and so it had like a little boy inside that was perhaps trapped, or perhaps just that's all the existence that he knew.

This one, I'm not sure, actually. But it has the same kind of idea, someone's looking to get out. Someone's trying to figure out or explore somewhere else.

I'm not sure, but I like the idea that somehow maybe "The Temptress" was either tempted and he got trapped, or he's tempted where he wants to look elsewhere beyond his immediate environment.

Tina: Which is in keeping with things you say about yourself, where you question and you ...

Artist: And then of course the-

Speaker 4: Egress?

Artist: You saw that?

Speaker 4: Yes.

Artist: Good. Then you know what that's from, right?

Speaker 4: No.

Artist: Okay, so with the circus back in the day, P.T. Barnum would say "a sucker born every day," had signs "This way to the egress."

Speaker 4: Oh, so kind of like the-

Artist: "Oh, Egress. That must be a really cool animal, let's go that way."

Well, it simply means exit.

Speaker 4: Oh, right.

Artist: They'd go out, and then they'd have to pay to get back in.

Speaker 4: That's funny. I didn't know that. That's awesome.

Artist: Yeah. So that always stuck in my head from when I learned about it as a child.

Speaker 4: That's awesome.

Artist: Yeah, so there's a manhole cover-

PART 2 OF 5 ENDS [01:08:04]

Artist: ... learned about it as a child.

Speaker 6: That's awesome.

Artist: So there's a manhole cover with egress.

Speaker 5: Which is interesting. You think yourself out and you have to pay to go back in. It's interesting.

Artist: So this one was like so here you're trying to take a material that's generally right angles and straight and parallel and stuff, and trying to compound curve it. In other words, this is a compound curve. Now you can, this study you can do that, with the wood you can make it thin enough so it will bend, or you steam it and then you can bend it around things. That's how ... you've seen maybe chairs that have had bent wood lamination, because they take real thin layers or thicknesses, and they put all these layers together. But there's glue in between so they can bend them, get them into the shape they want and the glue hardens, and now they're in that permanent shape.

So there's the technical side to get the engineering to where you can get it to the form that you want. That was the hard part about this piece was now in order to have doors that open up, you have to have pinpoints that are located at the same point if you want this thing to come open [crosstalk 01:09:30] just trying to come down at an angle or something like that. So anyway, it was quite the affair but it was an interesting challenge.

Speaker 5: So take me from idea in your head then to your sketch and think a little, then come-

Artist: Yeah, back and forth. This is going to be almost preconceived, this one. This is for a guy over in Dubai. He bought the accountant one that's on the first page, the home page, he bought that. That's over in Dubai. [crosstalk 01:10:03] Can you imagine-

Speaker 5: Shipping.

Artist: Some guy wants my piece, piece from Dubai.

Anyway, he has a partner I guess and he wants some of the piece for his partner, so I sent him some sketches and back and forth. I was hesitant. I didn't like really any of the sketches I did and then I finally came up with this one. I like what's happening in this one so I'm going to execute this one. But like I said, it's preconceived now so it's a matter of I've got to engineer it to some degree. I've got to figure out how things are going to fit together so they can break apart and go on in the crate and then get over there.

Speaker 5: Will it open?

Artist: No. This one will not open. [crosstalk 01:10:50]. This is like the cage man sings, that piece. Well that's what he wanted originally I said, "I don't want to make that again. I just don't want to do that." And I'm glad I insisted on that. Wanted to do something new.

Speaker 5: Probably made him want a piece even more just liked it that way.

Artist: I'm liking some of the ideas that are happening with this. Anyway so that's the next commission, bigger commission that I'm working on.

Speaker 5: So talk me through that choice.

Artist: Well I had this idea of like a spiritual self decapitation and what would result from that. I thought of it this transition taking place with this idea. The transition is that okay the bird is there aiding in this transition, some kind of spiritual transition, and I wanted to have some kind of connection. So this is going to be skull like, but not skull like, but not ... I didn't want it to look or be like skull like in the sense that this dog is a dead skull. I want it to still have looking like it's still human if you [crosstalk 01:12:19]. But the eyes are gone.

So the eyes become eggs, that's the bird. Although it's not going to be literal. There's going to be white spheres-

Speaker 5: More black than not ...

Artist: More people working around-

Speaker 5: Two in a row-

Artist: Right and I want it to be more of an implied thing. I wanted the bird also to be in transition, so it goes from a skull like head with some vertebrae, then to a regular body, so the bird was having the transition thing, too. The cage thing adds, of course, adds a whole 'nother element that, whatever metaphoric things you want to bring, or symbolic things you want to bring with the cage, too. There again, I'm not sure exactly what it means, but I see there's some kind of transition thing of faith or spirit, so that's how I'm looking at it.

I don't know if I really want to have the little pinky up, and it would be just like clamped on. I don't think I'm going-

Speaker 5: Not so delicate, because it looks like he's holding with just his two ... right. It's your head.

Artist: Yeah, I didn't want it to be so menacing like, that kind of pose-

Speaker 5: Aggressive, right?

Artist: That's the point. I want it to be almost like a question kind of thing. Not like this, like with the head in the hand either or the last poor Yorick. I want it to be almost nonchalant, just kind of holding it up a little bit. It might all change, I don't know.

Speaker 5: Not directly, but it makes me bring up the tin man; how he knew he didn't have a heart and he didn't have anything else in there either. He just wanted the heart. I always thought that was interesting that he-

Speaker 6: He didn't have anything in there.

Speaker 5: All he wanted was the heart part. I always thought that was interesting.

Artist: Yeah, I know. That was cool.

Speaker 5: And when I'm old and I get sore, I always go, oil can, oil can.

Artist: That's great.

Speaker 5: I did want to tell you one funny thing. I went to see Eric Idle and John Cleese. They came through Atlanta just to do a sit down couch talk.

Artist: When was this?

Speaker 5: A couple of years ago in [Bliss 01:14:44] actually. There was a woman walking around that had a sign that said, "No photography." So I got a picture with her. But they came out, it was a packed house, sold out. In Atlanta and the curtains were closed and they came out on the stage. They were very serious and they said, "We wanted to address something for this tour that's been haunting us is that everybody said we went on tour for the money." And they were like, "We absolutely did not go on tour for the money. We wanted to be very clear about that."

Then he goes, "We went on tour for the sex. We need the money to pay this." Then the night ensued- [crosstalk 01:15:24] The curtains came open and they had these four chairs that were like stools and a microphone. They sat in these two, like lounge chairs. No one ever came out. They just ... just thought I'd mention it, silly, he wanted to go through with it.

Artist: When we watch, my wife and I, we very rarely watch any kind of comedy, stand up things, but we did watch Ali Wong, have you ever heard of her?

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Artist: Have you ever heard of her?

Speaker 6: I've heard of her, but- I think it's like an HBO-

Artist: Yes, an HBO special. She did a special a few years ago. She was with child and of course she was talking about this whole impending birth and her marriage and stuff. She has the kid. Now she's done another special and she's pregnant again. She wears this tight-fitting leopard outfit with a massive bulge here, only comes to there, just completely, just pick out the worst, stupid thing to wear. Her whole hour, stand up thing, doesn't mention once about being pregnant. Nothing about her body, anything like that. I thought that was pretty-

Speaker 5: 'Cause you're waiting for it.

Artist: Right, just like you were waiting for the chairs. I thought that was really brilliant that she didn't mention anything about her pregnancy.

Speaker 5: Especially because there was a like a mic and then they close the whole thing with a sing along to bouncing balls in front of my face. I love it. I would go see them again in a heartbeat.

Artist: We saw, I took my son to see, he was engrossed with Python. He had seen him a lot on Broadway, so it was-

Speaker 5: I bet that was-

Artist: It was [inaudible 01:17:14] the actual Cleese variety or anything like that.

Speaker 5: I saw that rabbit with the blood and got a close up of that.

Artist: That was a fun piece to do because they put up these action figures. They were really nicely done, about this big. Made this stupid foam cloud, this is for my brother-in-law because he's a Python fan, too. We're just going to sit up on this lame looking foam cloud there.

Speaker 5: What, a stick, or-

Artist: It was bad. So I just started sketching, it's just ruined and I said this would be fun without a portfolio piece.

Speaker 5: Looks like the catapult, there's so much there.

Artist: There's motorized, too, so in ramparts, in the crenulations, there's, he just wanted a simple can, so the two French taunters. There's one inside the cabinet and there's one on his head. It just pops up, goes up and down. [crosstalk 01:18:16] In the rampart. Of course, it's got the club, you saw it had the club [inaudible 01:18:20]. It's got the rabbit.

This is another funny story. I brought this in because there was like a professional there. My daughter was at the [inaudible 01:18:30] elementary school. She had heard it was professional day. If your dad does something professional, if you want him to come or something and share with the others, with the artists. So I go up in my Monty Python cabinet-

Speaker 5: To what grade?

Artist: To the elementary school. So it's first to fifth grade. I had this class come in and it was a third grade group. They started asking questions. This little kid just pipes up and he pointed, "Hand grenade, the holy hand grenade of Antioch."

Speaker 5: A grenade ... just out of nowhere?

Artist: Yeah.

Speaker 5: That's brilliant.

Artist: He knew it because his parents had showed him a film and he was familiar with it-

Speaker 6: That's awesome.

Artist: Some of it is family friendly, kind of goofy where kids-

Speaker 5: It kind of goes over if they don't get it.

Artist: Yeah, the only thing that's totally inappropriate is the ladies at the castle, but I suppose some parents could find the Black Knight scene disturbing, kids could find ... I mean, I suppose. Anything's possible. I think most kids would see the absurdity of it.

Speaker 5: I understand it's completely silly, yeah.

You have, just real quick, it's in my head, one of the funniest child outbursts I've ever heard. I was in Sunday school and the woman was saying, who is Jesus? She said, "Oh, he's the guy, he died and he came out of the ground and he sees his shadow, there's six more weeks ..."

Artist: Six more weeks of-

Speaker 5: And at first she was like-

Artist: They said six more weeks of summer or winter?

Speaker 5: Winter. The woman that was in charge of the class had her was like, "Oh no." I was a little kid and I still remember that.

Artist: That's hysterical.

Speaker 5: I thought it was, too.

So this, you have a line or like a-

Artist: Yeah, this has been sitting for two years now. I still haven't gotten around to it, but this is sleepwalking boy. This is the body, this is the head. I don't know if I will probably get to it at some point, but yeah it's ready to be carved so ... that's his head right there. But that was his head before it got carved, that's the size. He's going to be just about ready to float on his tiptoes. He's going to have a night shirt that comes down and just have two little stubby feet.

He'll be closed. He'll have a luchador mask on. But the night shirt with the dark kind of purple and then regular stars, different sizes, all over his night shirt.

Speaker 6: So you glue this and clamp it and then you-

Artist: Pin it, yeah this-

Speaker 6: Oh you pin it-

Artist: Pin it to the body.

Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah.

Artist: But it's hollow. I built it so it's hollow-

Speaker 6: Otherwise it would be extremely heavy.

Artist: Well not that heavy. Then I use a-

Speaker 6: A grinder?

Artist: A boring technique, but yeah that's ... then I have [inaudible 01:22:01] that I use.

Speaker 6: That's cool, that's a nice size.

Speaker 5: You have so many tools and things-

Speaker 6: I know, and I love these others, like the planer and the cali- these-

Artist: When I need to get boards flat and smooth, so occasionally, like when I'm doing this piece over here, I'll have to use it to get the base done. Because the base will be two inch thick, but I've got to get it so I can get things together and be able to take them apart-

Speaker 6: Just all these old tools you're using, yeah-

Artist: That's my favorite tool right there-

Speaker 6: Samantha ... I like your [bit 01:22:48] setup system, too.

Artist: It's all right, if you go to a real woodworker who's in this for the ... I'd say cabinetmaker-

Speaker 6: Like "This Old House" type-

Artist: If you go to a cabinetmaker, you'll see how everything is laid out and how efficient it is and all that stuff. A good wood worker ... you go there and then you come back here and go man, you're lame.

Speaker 6: This is awesome.

Artist: But it really makes you appreciate how well they think out and engineer stuff and plan it. It's amazing. The guys are really amazing.

Speaker 5: And an abbreviated version is otherwise-

Artist: You're not going to let this-

Speaker 5: No-

Speaker 6: I know exactly what you're doing-

Speaker 5: Take me from that to that.

Artist: Abbreviated version-

Speaker 5: Well, like you picked up and you started that and then you went to different heads, genitals-

Artist: A sole piece of wood and I had a pattern for an ass. I copied the pattern for the ass onto the piece of wood. I carved it out of the piece of wood-

Speaker 5: I make things and I [crosstalk 01:24:16].

Artist: As much as I possibly can-

Speaker 5: It's a nice ass.

Artist: Then, I found that I had an idea and I could put wood together in all manner of ways to create that.

Speaker 5: So, in a way, you started as your mom did, looking at something and-

Artist: From one copy to something that's more original.

Speaker 5: Wholly original. Nobody's going to run into another one.

Artist: That's right. There's a big difference between this and-

Speaker 5: It's just interesting, you know ten, eleven. Was it a confidence over time, was it just thinking over time, was it just a development of you understanding-

Artist: I think it's just growth, human growth, that's what I would say, human growth. You're expanding, your mind expands so it can never go back to its original dimension.

Speaker 5: Some people don't have the courage that you've shown to-

Artist: That's a very powerful way of saying it. I don't know if I'd say courage. I guess any kind of act of creation is a bit of courage involved.

Speaker 5: Pursue your thinking.

Artist: You're putting it out there ... not that you're specifically putting it out there because I want people to look at it and judge me and criticize me. I don't really worry about that too much. I'm more interested in getting the idea out and then okay, whatever. I'm pretty self-actualized so if someone wants to call it a piece of shit, then okay, fine.

Speaker 5: One man's piece of shit ... another man's ass.

Artist: That's obviously not the case because obviously feedback has been good and positive, which is nice. I'm not going to lie. It feels good when people like and are attracted to your work and find interesting. Who wouldn't want that?

Speaker 5: Right.

Artist: Enough of this ass [crosstalk 01:26:19].

Speaker 5: You're tired of showing your ass, I guess.

Artist: That's right, I'm tired of showing my ass.

Speaker 5: What I wanted to talk about, there's some of the golden threads. One of them is that, everyone has that ... they call it different things so far, but everyone has that self-actualization of, and you said it in the kitchen, too, I have to keep doing this.

Artist: Oh yeah, condemned, I like to look at it like I'm condemned to create.

Speaker 5: That's yet another phrase for it but there's thread of, it's just what I do. I have to do it. All of those effects, I have to do it. Calvin's like, "It's just how I communicate."

Artist: So is he, is he like on the Asperger's thing?

Speaker 5: I don't know, I didn't-

Artist: I mean, don't ask, like you got some problems?

Speaker 5: What number, seven, no six. He was very forthright with that. It's in his art-

Artist: That's what ... I wanted my wife to look at that, too, because she deals with special ed and stuff like that. I have an artist buddy, [Mike 01:27:22], whose son is on that kind of-

Speaker 6: Spectrum?

Artist: Yeah and a really fun kid. It's interesting to see how his wheels work. I imagine you found that with Calvin, too, just understanding how his wheels work. Of course, the work is phenomenal-

Speaker 5: And where we got to with him was really interesting. We were asking him about that, he said, oh I hate social situations; I hate, I hate, I hate. But yet he kept putting himself. I said do you do that to force the art and he's like, I think I do. It's interesting-

Artist: So you're self-aware-

Speaker 5: It wasn't an aversion, it was an "I know this is pressure cooker for me. I go in and stuff comes out."

Artist: Right, right.

Speaker 5: I thought that was interesting how he goes into-

Artist: Is he still in his twenties?

Speaker 6: No, I think he said he was 34.

Artist: Thirty-four.

Speaker 5: But he looks like he's-

Artist: No, I know, he looks like a little kid.

Speaker 5: His wife shares his studio and stuff, that's great-

Artist: Yeah. It's that thing, I built this thing in a shop. I could be fine with just a little garage. I mean, I could get by.

Speaker 6: Where is your favorite place to work in this? I don't see you sitting down much, but maybe you do-

Artist: I like it because I have the windows here. I like, if I'm doing stuff, I want to be here and my fastening stuff over here. Lately it's been in the back room on the windowsill there, so I bring all my stuff for making the moon base and that way I can interact with my wife and sit them on the windowsill right there. You see a lot of me, but before my trays of stuff were way out there and I'm watching TV or watching a sporting event, basketball, so yeah I'm a big basketball-

Speaker 6: Yeah, I see that.

Speaker 5: Yeah I saw that as you were talking, I see-

Artist: There's a court right there so when we play in the night, the boys are-

Speaker 6: Awesome.

Artist: The boys are coming at night, so-

Speaker 5: Half court-

Artist: I was thinking it may be full court but it was just too expensive. I couldn't see paying for it but now, retrospect, I would have built a half court indoor facility, so I could have taught year round. My students ... and we could have played year round and I could have controlled it. Now I'm at the mercy of the weather and stuff, even though I love-

Speaker 6: [Kick stuff 01:29:50]-

Artist: Yeah-

Speaker 6: No kick stuff-

Artist: No, it's over. My son is grown and all that stuff.

Speaker 6: I love the saying on that little half moon thing. Two of my favorites are kind of akin to that. One is, there's a bazillion, I can't remember the word for it. There's a bazillion things waiting to be known.

Artist: Right, right.

Speaker 6: I like that. I just love that saying. The other one I like and I tell this to my daughter all the time, because she gets inhibited when she doesn't know something. I love this quote, it's "there's no shame in not knowing but there is shame in not finding out." Like once you know that you don't know, go find it out. So I think those are interesting and I think you have this fervor ... I don't know if it's still fervor, but this compulsion to like think and find out and see what-

Speaker 5: This, I think you really have to solve, though, I think that's interesting.

Artist: Yeah, I guess they were plus minus about it, the idea of overthinking things and trying to incorporate. It's been a problem of mine, incorporating too many ideas into things when I should really just focus on the one. That's the idea of resolving the idea. Get down to, let's say, one kind of thing, not a whole mantra of things. Like you could argue there's a whole bunch of things or too many things in there. I don't know, that works-

Speaker 5: Singular benefit-

Artist: Yeah, but other stuff that I've done in the past has been, really too many ideas.

Speaker 5: Because they're all in here and-

Artist: Yeah, you've got to keep them all in there. I don't know, just keep it simple. Just keep it simple. One idea at a time, like the Reliquary series could kind of do that, for me.

Speaker 5: So how much do you contain versus release, when you're trying to do that expansion?

Artist: That's a good question. I haven't really thought about it. I don't know.

Speaker 5: Because there is some discipline of choice, whether you want to add-

Artist: What's not there is as important as what's there, so, yeah, I don't know. I couldn't quantify, I don't think.

Speaker 5: You just let it-

Artist: You just hope that you make, yeah, the right judgments and choices so that the piece works.

Speaker 5: Have you made something ... I shouldn't say this with all your children outside. Have you made something and when you've made it, gone, hmm, what do you do with it?

Artist: Destroy it or move it along, yeah. I have burned so much artwork, can't tell you. I've burned it, I've literally burned it.

Speaker 5: All right, I'm thinking of you walking around with something inside your head, probably a lot of things, but one you're chewing on and then it comes out in a piece and then the piece isn't where you need it or wanted it to be for what was in your head. Do you then revisit the thought again or do you just-

Artist: No piece is safe, that's for sure. I have no problem with revisiting a piece and changing it. Not that it happens very often, but in the past I have done that. Like I said, I was thinking about changing something there. I don't, I wish I could say goodbye to them, I'm tired of them. I don't want them in the house anymore. They're like kids that are grown and are still hanging out. I really don't want that anymore and now I want to find a home for it.

Speaker 5: Because you're done with the thinking [crosstalk 01:33:24]. Does it inhibit, because it occupies the space of where- you don't really say I'm needing this, I know but-

Artist: I don't know if I'd say it inhibits. I mean, to some part of me is inspired by it, to see it again, to look at it and say that came out pretty cool. You did a good job there, clip away, clip away. Yeah, I think it's best to have that link-

Speaker 5: Clean whitewall-

Artist: Yeah, a clean wall, exactly, so you're inviting yourself to and you can go on and move forward.

Speaker 5: I think this is an interesting juxtaposition of, in the, you know what-

Artist: These two pieces have been sitting, piled up over here. So with you coming, I figured it might be of interest and I put them up. It's nice to see them. I cleaned them up a little bit.

Speaker 5: They look happy.

Artist: I can't understand why I wasn't able to sell this one.

Speaker 5: No, I don't either.

Speaker 6: It's beautiful.

Artist: I felt like for sure ... I do remember some person saying they didn't like the color.

Speaker 6: But really, like-

Artist: But I understand that and I get it. It just doesn't go or work in their space or their home or whatever. At the same time ... really? But it's a significant amount of money and stuff, so-

Speaker 5: So you have no trouble letting go of any of your pieces? There's not one you want to hold onto?

Artist: The only reason I'm keeping the [roller quarry 01:35:08] pieces and some of the other pieces is because I want to give those to my daughter and my son together. So I want them to have that. She's getting the one big cabinet inside and she has the bed. I made the bed for her so she has that, so she can give that to her daughter or something. My granddaughter or grandson, I don't know how that's going to work out.

But the caged animal, I think that's probably just going to go out there to some lizard loving guy who wants a really unique piece.

Speaker 5: You mean the lizard?

Artist: The lizard, he's probably got a few more years left.

Speaker 6: What's his name?

Artist: Zilla.

Speaker 6: Oh, Zilla.

Artist: Yeah, the other one we have is Jabber because he can jab and get the cockroaches.

Speaker 6: Is there an alternate ego, what's the affinity for Frankenstein in Frankenstein's bride?

Artist: Oh, I don't know if you saw the action figures-

Speaker 6: I did.

Artist: Because I have all the different uniforms-

Speaker 6: Yeah, I love those.

Artist: Just to a kid growing up, that stuff is amazing and fun. I've just always had it around. There's the highbrow and the lowbrow culture, so I like that idea. Like you come in my house and there's two Godzillas there-

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Artist: It's some kind of highbrow thing, it's this lowbrow cultural thing, so I make that kind of-

Speaker 6: [Stay in chapter two 00:28:32]-

Artist: That's basically it. A couple of little minion things-

Speaker 6: Those are hilarious.

Artist: You know, like my kid would buy those for me-

Speaker 5: Yeah, minions. I love minions.

Speaker 6: What was ... and I'm hearing that some pieces that you taught, are you still teaching?

Artist: No, I taught from '77 to 2001.

Speaker 6: What was your favorite project that you gave your students?

Artist: The fidget. When I started to change things in the art department and we were doing things as far as problem solving, I used to teach the old mechanical drawing classes. Then we changed it and stabilized a little to where it was really designing and problem solving. Probably the best product I came up with was the fidget. That was simply you get a, inherently a wood shop so machines are available. You get a little block of wood, let's say 2 1/2 by 8 inches long and 3/4 inches thick. Then you have to create something to fidget with in the classroom.

So rather than talking and disturbing the class, making noise fidgeting with some kind of fidget thing that you could use in your hands that won't make noise or be obnoxiously attention drawing. So it goes through all the aspects of design from ideation to preliminary sketches to evaluating each step of the way. So we go through the whole design process. This is a nice sample of my fidget; nice and smooth. You can play with and then you can put it on your finger and twirl it and do this, it's got the little stub stem, all that.

You've got the kid that, okay, so he just sands the outside of the block and puts his finish on it and there it is.

Speaker 6: Uh-huh, the mentalist.

Artist: Which is a legitimate thing. You can make other arguments about it but then you get the other kid that he's cutting it up, he's putting it together, he's making this amazing little engineered thing. Other people are cutting it up and making it into little puzzle things, where you are stacking them, so we're creating a little simple idea and a simple piece of wood and then what could come out of that. That's the one that stands out.

We did other things like this weasel thing right here?

Speaker 5: He looks scary.

Artist: Yeah, he is kind of scary, that's really the weasel. So I made this little weasel, my wife and I. She's a seamstress. So the kids immediately noticed that-

Speaker 5: The snaggletooth?

Artist: Yeah, now the kids, wait ... are those real teeth? No, those are mine. I yanked them out when I was 20 then I got braces.

Speaker 5: They've been [crosstalk 01:39:35]-

Artist: They're like, that's disgusting! Of course I like that. But anyway, so here's the weasel. We're in the gym and here's the weasel. There's a line at one end of the gym floor. Okay and the weasel is out about 15 feet so your job is to take a brick, just a regular brick, using the potential energy of that brick. You have to create some kind of machine or device that can get the weasel from that point as far down to the floor as you can go.

They've got cardboard, they've got wood, that kind of stuff. So they create all these little machines with wheels-

Speaker 5: Pulleys and stuff-

Artist: ... release the weight of the brick or whatever and then we'd try to-. So that's a more fun kind of-

Speaker 5: Did anybody just throw the brick at it?

Artist: No.

Speaker 6: It's a lost art in itself, the whole problem solving-

Speaker 5: I am all on board with that. There are not enough problem solvers. Everyone seems to be holding everyone else's hands.

Artist: That's the beauty of what I was able to do because there was a kind of a curriculum but it wasn't like a hard core curriculum. There wasn't testing after it.

Speaker 5: Right.

Artist: I was the goofy art teacher-

Speaker 5: [inaudible 01:40:46]

Artist: Exactly, so part of me-

Speaker 5: Nowadays we would-

Artist: ... over the years-

Speaker 5: Well, you're supposed to be, you're the art teacher.

Artist: I hate that, I hated that. I was not weird, you're fricking' weird.

Speaker 5: But you can't say that.

Artist: That's right. But I'm like, okay, I'll just play with this, so I would be like, just that kind of thing. Oh yeah, he's the, the art teacher is ... but you know what? Whenever they had somebody come into the school and they wanted to show off the school, they always went to my room first.

Speaker 5: Yeah, because it's the most interesting.

Speaker 6: People doing different things, working at their own pace.

Artist: I didn't ask for permission to do ... I just started painting walls, I did stuff. To the principal's credit, he just let me go because he could have been a stickler.

Speaker 6: No, that's a good principal.

Artist: Yeah, he was. He was a good principal in retrospect. He just let me go and as a result, it was a positive thing for the school and for the community. I loved what I did. I loved the kids.

Speaker 6: Do you still keep in touch with any of the kids or-

Artist: Yes, I do. Here, he's a painter-

Speaker 6: Yeah, I was wondering who this one was, oh wow.

PART 3 OF 5 ENDS [01:42:04]

Artist: He's a painter and he's a painter in Barcelona.

Angela: Yeah, I was wondering who these people are.

Tina: Oh wow.

Angela: That's cool. You can see that. You see the ...

Artist: Caesar paints these big portraits and then he takes and smears it like some kind of Francis Bacon thing.

Angela: It's cool.

Tina: I like that, a whole thought is like ...

Artist: He's living large, but when I was teaching, Coca Cola wants to get their grips into the school, so they, "Oh you get to have the soda machine and your artwork can decorate the whole soda machine." He created this image and, of course, yeah, they put it on the soda machine and he got first place and all this kind of stuff.

Angela: Wow.

Tina: Which is fun.

Artist: Pretty nasty wicked guy. I was torn. Do I really want to do this?

Angela: Yeah, corporate thing.

Artist: Because I hated the whole concept of [crosstalk 01:42:38] they're getting their sugar into the kids. It's just really ominous, something-

Tina: From Atlanta, yeah we know. [crosstalk 01:42:45]

Angela: Something's wrong about it. Yeah. [crosstalk 01:42:45] That's how the world works. I mean that's ...

Tina: It's not addictive.

Artist: Are you ready to eat? Get something to eat?

Tina: Oh I didn't even think about that. But I have to ask you about this.

Artist: Oh okay.

Tina: I love those too, what I'm hearing you talk about is all this stuff going on in your head that you're making sense of and making connections and thinking through and it's just, you're just living, right?

Artist: Mm-mm (affirmative).

Tina: You're just going through, but you're not ignoring those big questions that come up. You think through them and then you have ideas, like that cabinet came out of a pretty heady, philosophical idea. Frustrated philosopher, right.

Artist: Yeah, exactly.

Tina: This and in other places and even the one that came out of you wanting to give your dad organization, is so controlled and organized.

Artist: Yeah, there's an anal retentive side to me.

Tina: Right, so I think that, where you can control this but this is never ending. Once you figure through one thought, the next one, the next one, the next one, it's like you have this stream of never ending thinking, so you control what you can. Then you try to solve what you ...

Artist: Isn't that like life too? You want to try to control some things. This requires like, do you want to have a drawer and just stuff everything in a drawer? Obviously it makes practical sense to have it so you know where everything is too. That's the other thing, knowing where everything is. My wife and I are on two different ...

Tina: Makes practical sense.

Artist: Yeah, my wife and I are on two different pages when it comes to that. I'm like, "Okay, let's put it back in the same drawer." She's like, "Whatever drawer is good. That's fine. That'll do." Where's the can opener? Where's the bottle opener? I put it here; this is where it should be. Why is it over there? Then, she's like, "Oh my God," and that kind of stuff.

Tina: That's what I'm going back to. [crosstalk 01:44:34]

Angela: All you have to do is ask her.

Artist: That's right! At least that's what she says.

Angela: Yeah.

Tina: Going back to your dad and the order that you, and then ...

Artist: He was very engineer, he was very engineer.

Tina: Yeah, because that practical side of you.

Artist: Yeah, so when we go on our trips across the states, I'm 11 years old. Every gas station, how many gallons?

Angela: Miles.

Artist: Miles.

Angela: Yes, yes.

Tina: I was there too. My Dad kept a book in the glove department.

Angela: Yes. Yes.

Artist: We would joke, "Hi Pops, where were we 5 years ago on this day?"

Angela: Would he know?

Tina: He would know.

Artist: He would know. If it was over the summer because he would have a log book and everything like that. But he would do other stuff too. Like when he did his stocks and investments and stuff he would have all his numbers written down. He kept ledgers of all that stuff because he was a chemical engineer. He was an engineer. [crosstalk 01:45:28] That's Mom and Dad, yeah.

Angela: I saw that in your class too. They're so freaking cute.

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: That's part of that [crosstalk 01:45:36] New York thing.

Artist: Now, [Towamba 01:45:38], the name of my studio is from my mother's birthplace in Australia. [crosstalk 01:45:43] That's where that comes from, but my dad was an MIT graduate. I keep his stuff up there to honor him and keep the memory alive. I have them watch [Melanie 01:45:55] all the time.

Angela: Were they always supportive?

Artist: Oh, yeah. [crosstalk 01:46:00] They never missed one basketball game in my high school or college career, not one.

Tina: That's right.

Artist: We're talking driving all over the place when I was in college. I didn't play big time college ball, but I played a level where you got to go four hours to drive to get to a different university or school. With my dad teaching on the university level, he had his situations where he had an availability where he could take off and go and fit it in and make it work. My mom would always come. Of course, he would sit there and make up stats.

Tina: Of course. [crosstalk 01:46:45]

Artist: He'd do his own stats. [crosstalk 01:46:46] Exactly.

Angela: Probably not just you either, the whole team, right?

Artist: He would do me, but he was doing some of the other team. Yeah, he was, [crosstalk 01:46:53] but he was primarily focused on me and gave him something to do.

Angela: Yeah.

Tina: My mom and dad, they should have never been together. They had a very tumultuous relationship. My dad had that log; he was military. He had that log book in the glove compartment of gallons, miles and all that. He used to make my mom write it down. They were in a horrible fight one time.

Artist: Oh, because, yeah.

Tina: She just wrote, "Fuck you."

Angela: Instead of the ...

Artist: You remember seeing it in the book?

Tina: Yes, I didn't know what it meant at the time. I just know it wasn't good because it wasn't the formula. The page was formula columns. He had drawn lines. She just wrote ... It's funny to me now.

Artist: When you go on Switch, do you go to the ACC craft show when it comes down to Atlanta?

Tina: We got to ICE. It's called ICE, Independent Craft [crosstalk 01:47:45].

Artist: No, it'd be American Crafts Council.

Tina: Mm-mm (negative), but I'm going to probably mention that to them.

Artist: [crosstalk 01:47:48] I think they still do Atlanta.

Tina: Yeah.

Angela: Probably. They probably have it at-

Artist: Because I do the Baltimore. I've done the Baltimore one. They have one in St. Paul. They have on in San Francisco. I still think they have the one in Atlanta. Maybe they dropped that one. I'm not sure.

Angela: Do you remember where it was? [crosstalk 01:48:04]

Artist: I don't.

Tina: I don't [crosstalk 01:48:06].

Artist: Let me know because I'm thinking that if I get a body of work together, I might get back into it. I was thinking it might be fun to do Atlanta.

Tina: You'll definitely have a place to stay if you wanted to.

Artist: Thanks.

Tina: I have the room.

Angela: Take you out, show you the town.

Artist: I just would want to wander around and just go through your house.

Tina: That's fine.

Angela: It is fun.

Tina: [crosstalk 01:48:27] My house is like an art gallery.

Angela: [crosstalk 01:48:38] Can I unplug?

Artist: Yeah, I guess you unplug it. That's a good idea.

Angela: What do you think of Larry Bird?

Artist: I love Larry Bird. I love watching him play. He wasn't my all-time favorite player.

Angela: Who was that?

Artist: Bill Walton.

Angela: I don't know who Bill Walton is.

Artist: Yeah, he played for UCLA and then played for the Portland Trailblazers. They won the NBA title in 1977. His career was over in '86. He's probably a little before your time.

Angela: Yeah.

Artist: Because you're still in your early 20s/early 30s, right? [crosstalk 01:49:03] What? Am I off?

Angela: Way off.

Artist: Oh good.

Angela: You listen to music all the time?

Artist: I try to between that and watching movies and stuff. [crosstalk 01:49:14]. I'm a big movie buff.

Angela: I hear you guys did punk rock on there. [crosstalk 01:49:18] like Tom Waits. Who are your top five?

Artist: Top five, I like Tom Waits. I like John Prine. [crosstalk 01:49:23]

Angela: Have you ever seen him? I love John Prine.

Artist: I have not seen Tom Waits.

Angela: You must go see him.

Artist: I know. I had a chance.

Angela: You love his music; you will be blown away.

Artist: I had a chance 14 years ago to go for $75 and I passed it up. That was the stupidest thing I ever did.

Angela: Such a good show. It's like ...

Artist: Then my other all-time fave is the Talking Heads [crosstalk 01:49:45].

Angela: I love Talking Heads, yeah. He lives in Atlanta. I think that might be another good reason to come to Atlanta.

Artist: Who? David?

Angela: Yeah, [crosstalk 01:49:52]

Artist: I would never have thought that he would pick Atlanta.

Angela: I think he lives in Atlanta. Maybe he doesn't, but he does go to the art galleries.

Artist: You just will not let my ass alone, will you?

Angela: Alone.

Tina: I just didn't want you to leave it out here. [crosstalk 01:50:02] I think I pinched it.

Angela: Get your hands off my ass.

Artist: Hands off my ass. I'm tired of you picking on my ass.

Angela: You said you were a movie buff, so what movies?

Artist: I'm complete spectrum there too.

Tina: Oh yeah.

Artist: I like a broad range of things from ...

Angela: I could tell you ones that I first started getting [crosstalk 01:50:19]. What were those first art films that you were like, "This is awesome"?

Artist: Let's see, arty films. My all-time favorite surreal film would be Eraserhead.

Angela: It feels great out here.

Tina: Yeah.

Angela: Now, see, I have not seen that.

Artist: That's David Lynch.

Angela: Yeah, and I love David Lynch, but I have not seen Eraserhead. That's one I haven't seen.

Artist: That's his first one.

Tina: I found it really disturbing.

Artist: Oh, it is, but is truly the most surreal movie that I think that's out there that at least has some connectedness, all right? I suppose there's maybe other surreal movies that don't have connectedness. Maybe that makes them completely surreal, but that one is really good. You're right, it's very disturbing. All the things that you've seen about David Lynch originated in Eraserhead and it's there.

Angela: In that first film? Yeah. [crosstalk 01:51:11] Like you sectionalized it and made the-

Artist: All his little ways of doing things, the camera zooming into blackness or the sounds that are these industrial sounds or his lights flickering and just creating these environments that are just ...

Tina: Little jumps.

Artist: Yeah, are just claustrophobic or just get me out of here. I don't want to be hanging out here.

Tina: Every time there was a little jump, I felt this.

Artist: Yeah?

Tina: Yeah, just going to remind you that this is [inaudible 01:51:43].

Artist: But other movies, let's see. Eraserhead. My favorite western of all time would be The Good, The Bad and The Ugly.

Angela: I don't know if I've seen that. I probably have. [crosstalk 01:51:56]

Artist: Yeah, that's one of Clint Eastwood's early ones, but Sergio Leone is the Italian western.

Angela: Okay.

Artist: Yeah, they have a surreal quality about them, that's why. [crosstalk 01:52:06]

Tina: Do we get a present? Thank you.

Angela: You ever seen the Brothers Quay stuff?

Artist: Of course.

Angela: Yeah.

Artist: Street of Crocodiles?

Angela: Yeah.

Artist: Yeah, I love all that stuff.

Angela: Yeah.

Artist: They are great. There's another Jan Svankmajer short film that he's also in those Czechoslovakian [crosstalk 01:52:25].

Angela: I need to write that one down. I've never even heard of him.

Artist: Yeah, I don't know if I got the spelling right or not on that.

Angela: [inaudible 01:52:35] Oh, influences like you ever look at Park Harrison? As far as artist influences, who are you impressed with as far as ...

Artist: Oh, there's so many.

Angela: Yeah.

Artist: Yeah, there's so many. The classics, there's Dali. I always liked Dali's-

Angela: Dali's amazing, just as a person even.

Artist: Yeah, just his ability as a draftsman drawing.

Angela: Right, and he's very conceptual too.

Artist: I mention the John Singer Sargent in terms of a painter, I love [crosstalk 01:53:06].

Angela: I noticed you had the [crosstalk 01:53:08] Vermeer.

Artist: I love Rembrandt. Rembrandt just blows me away, just for his ability to capture the portrait stuff. Vermeer, I love Vermeer.

Angela: Do you ever paint? [crosstalk 01:53:18] Are these your paintings that are around here too?

Artist: What's that?

Angela: Are these your paintings around here too? Do you do any painting?

Artist: I did a whole series of these pieces right here, these sculptural landscapes. [crosstalk 01:53:34] Yeah, that's my favorite one of the ones that I've done. [crosstalk 01:53:40]

Angela: I love the telephone pole. [crosstalk 01:53:41]

Artist: The paintings that I have are not [inaudible 01:53:45]. There's one down in the basement. I can show you that if you have time.

Angela: The basement? There's another room? [crosstalk 01:53:51]

Artist: Yeah, there's a basement. You'll get a kick out of the stairs.

Tina: The stairs are on your site.

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: Do we want to walk down there?

Artist: You hungry? [crosstalk 01:54:04]

Tina: I don't know, what time is it?

Artist: It's 11 something.

Tina: Yeah, let's eat. One something?

Artist: One something, yeah.

Angela: 1:23.

Tina: Oh, we're fine.

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: Hi, buddy.

Artist: Let's make some room here.

Tina: I feel like he's a newborn and we have to cradle his head.

Angela: Do you want [crosstalk 01:54:19] on something?

Tina: You know where I'm going to put him? I have this ...

Artist: I can bubble wrap him. I can put him in a little box, if you thought you wanted to do that.

Tina: I'll hand carry him.

Artist: That's very weird, no.

Tina: I'm going to pretend he's real and just twitch a lot [crosstalk 01:54:32] when I go through security.

Artist: I can see you walking through.

Tina: Oh, I probably will, but I have this place where at night when there's any kind of moon, it shines through. I'm going to put him so [crosstalk 01:54:43] that the moonlight hits him.

Angela: That's a good idea.

Artist: That's for you, by the way.

Tina: Thank you.

Artist: That's your [crosstalk 01:54:47].

Tina: If you forget, I can just send you two copies.

Artist: Yeah, see how high tech I am?

Tina: I see that. Can I show you something about how high tech I am? That's my [crosstalk 01:54:59].

Artist: I like it in paper rather than in the computer [crosstalk 01:55:05]. Yeah.

Tina: If you forget, I can just send you two copies of that artist agreement too. [crosstalk 01:55:13]

Artist: I have it on my computer. I just got to print it out if we have time to do that.

Tina: If you want, so that you don't have to print the whole thing, I just need the signature pages.

Artist: Oh, okay.

Tina: You keep one and I keep one and then you can print at will. I'm not big on the paper stuff, but the ...

Artist: Got you.

Tina: Guy has to have it.

Artist: I got you. I'm just going to be putting a whole bunch of stuff out here, okay?

Tina: Yes.

Angela: A lot of your [crosstalk 01:55:41].

Artist: You guys good with tahini and tabouli?

Angela: Oh yeah.

Artist: Now, my wife made tilapia burgers. It's fish.

Angela: Tilapia burgers?

Artist: Yeah. They're very sole and nice. I recommend you might want one of those.

Tina: What does the music box play?

Artist: Let's see, which music box?

Angela: The Kiss. [crosstalk 01:56:04]

Tina: Can I touch it? [inaudible 01:56:04] [music]

Artist: It should be on there. Oh, [inaudible 01:56:18]. Getting back to your other question, I like so many artists. I don't have a favorite.

Angela: Do you like Egon Schiele? [crosstalk 01:56:25] Yeah, I love him.

Artist: Oh, sure all of them. Yeah, [Emil Klint 01:56:25] there.

Angela: Yeah, obviously, yeah.

Artist: Yeah, I like so many contemporary people. You have an Atlanta guy. Tom Haney, right? You know him.

Angela: I don't know Tom Haney.

Artist: You don't know Tom Haney, Tina?

Tina: I don't.

Artist: Oh you got look. He's-

Tina: I'm wandering around your house just so you know.

Angela: Go to the bedroom.

Artist: He's a master. Tom Haney is the master of this stuff, the automaton.

Angela: Oh, I do know who Tom Haney is.

Artist: He's Atlanta.

Angela: I do know Tom Haney. I took a picture of that. I love this. I freaking love that. That's a good self-portrait of you.

Artist: This is my joy of teaching, yeah.

Angela: Yep. You are totally hitting your head [crosstalk 01:57:16] against them.

Tina: Is that what they gave you when you retired?

Artist: What?

Tina: Is that what they gave you when you retired?

Artist: No, I made this. [crosstalk 01:57:19]

Angela: That's what you should be giving them when you retire.

Artist: We were doing similar things in the classroom for a design problem. I did that as an example. Anyways, but Tom Haney is out of Atlanta. He just does these amazing automatous stuff. If you've not seen his work or gone to his website, he's well worth checking out.

Tina: I will.

Artist: He's just amazing.

Tina: I won't forget because I have it recorded.

Angela: When are you going to open up your house for a museum, start charging for attendants?

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: Fenster did it and made [crosstalk 01:57:51].

Angela: I want to know about how you acquired this. I love that.

Artist: My mother. [crosstalk 01:57:57]

Angela: I love that.

Artist: My mother's auction, yeah. [inaudible 01:58:01] She had some other stuff that I unfortunately got rid of. I don't know what I was thinking. Yeah, she had some interesting things. That horse in the bedroom is from the auction.

Angela: Yeah.

Tina: I'm going to go look. Is there a back room?

Angela: The bedroom? Yeah. I used to have a bunch of [inaudible 01:58:27], had some mannequins and stuff. That reminds me of my mannequins, but I gave all those away. I wish I still had them around.

Artist: Angela, you are an artist then? You currently working, all that kind of stuff?

Angela: No, I teach. [crosstalk 01:58:39]

Artist: Are you an art teacher?

Angela: Mm-mm (affirmative).

Artist: Oh, okay.

Angela: When I have kids-

Artist: What grade level?

Angela: High school, I've taught all levels though.

Artist: Really? Oh, okay.

Angela: I used to do more the fine arts hands on drawing and painting, but now I landed into photography. [crosstalk 01:58:52]

Artist: Oh, it's summertime, so you're off.

Angela: Right. [crosstalk 01:58:55] Oh, I would totally take a personal day for this.

Artist: Okay.

Angela: That smells delicious.

Artist: How long you been teaching?

Angela: 15 years?

Artist: 16, you're a vet.

Angela: 15, 16, yeah, feeling like it.

Tina: I love that white. It's just all white, like puppet that's straight?

Artist: Oh, the stick guy.

Angela: The clay?

Artist: Yeah, that's a Valerie [Blumel 01:59:20].

Tina: I love it.

Artist: Yeah, she's cool. She does some interesting things.

Angela: You definitely have an aesthetic.

Tina: I do.

Angela: Yeah, you do. [crosstalk 01:59:31]

Artist: Now, let me think. To drink, [crosstalk 01:59:34] I got seltzers.

Angela: I would like that. I like that.

Artist: Okay. I didn't know if you wanted anything that's got a little spike of alcohol or anything like that.

Angela: We are on vacation.

Tina: You guys can do that.

Angela: I'm working for you Tina.

Tina: [crosstalk 01:59:48] seltzer, yeah. I'm driving you.

Artist: We try to keep all our liquors down here.

Angela: I'll only have it if you have it.

Artist: No, I'm not going to drink any liquor.

Angela: If you're not having it, then that's fine. I choose that, fine.

Artist: Okay, but I would be if you wanted just a little touch, like a gin and tonic or something like that.

Angela: Oh, no, I'm good. I'm actually good.

Artist: Yeah, okay. We have Perrier.

Angela: Thank you. [crosstalk 02:00:05]

Artist: But I keep it down there, so little kids, if they wanted to get into the cabinetry [crosstalk 02:00:05].

Angela: They can? [crosstalk 02:00:05]

Artist: Like [crosstalk 02:00:05], a violation of all principles like when we first had our kids. You have them down there, it's pretty funny.

Tina: I did that same thing. [crosstalk 02:00:18]

Artist: I'm going to get you a glass with ice.

Angela: That's the most impressive thing to me about you is you had kids, but that didn't throw a wrench in the works for you.

Artist: It just meant maybe I wouldn't quit my teaching job so soon.

Angela: Yeah.

Tina: Did you ever have to make those kind of choices? We talked about your mom had to make, she put a lot of stuff-

Artist: Hold on a second.

Tina: Yeah, yeah.

Artist: Okay. This ice in here is not my favorite.

Angela: Are you somebody they're [inaudible 02:01:10] on or this that like-

Artist: What's that?

Angela: Are you still [crosstalk 02:01:12] with that? [crosstalk 02:01:13]

Artist: Yeah, I still got some things [inaudible 02:01:15]. I got all kinds of projects to do. There you go. Now, you got some ice to put your stuff in. Just trying to think. I got some [inaudible 02:01:25] here. [crosstalk 02:01:30]

Angela: Did she make those? Those are home made?

Artist: What? Yeah, she made those. They're good.

Angela: Wow, you guys, yeah.

Artist: I'll lightly heat those up. I'm trying to think.

Angela: You'll have to thank her. That's awesome.

Artist: Sauce-wise, what ... I can offer you.

Tina: [crosstalk 02:01:47] Just the hummus?

Artist: What's that? That's the hummus, yep.

Tina: No, I mean can we just use that as the ...

Artist: Getting some things. [crosstalk 02:01:56]

Tina: I'm not picky. It looks good.

Artist: Yep.

Angela: Whoops.

Artist: I want to wash my hands first. I don't know if you guys want to. You're welcome to do that if you wanted to.

Angela: I will.

Artist: Thanks. Then there's a hand towel in there.

Angela: Okay, thank you.

Artist: Okay. You think you want one of these?

Tina: Sure. It looks really good actually. Smells really good too.

Artist: Unless you would prefer them cold. She said they could be eaten cold, but I said, "I don't know about that."

Angela: We make salmon patties, right?

Artist: Yeah, I think I'll warm them up. [crosstalk 02:02:47]

Tina: I was talking to you about-

Artist: My mother, you had mentioned my mother.

Tina: You had talked about how she had to make choices sometimes or put stuff in ahead of.

Artist: Yeah, don't worry, he's going to be around.

Tina: Then we talked about that you had children. Did you have to make those choices sometimes? Was there ever frustration that you wanted more time for your art or more time for your kids or you just-

Artist: No, no. My wife is totally awesome.

Tina: Another thread.

Artist: She's totally awesome, like, "I need to work," boom. No problem. She is like the mother supreme. She is amazing. She loves it. She lived child birth. In a different time and space I would have had seven kids with her.

Angela: Oh.

Artist: Yeah, she loved being pregnant. Yeah, she's just a great mom. She's into birthing. She was doing the Bradley birthing thing and was maybe going to want to teach that at some point and move in that direction. She might still do something like that post-teaching career. She loves everything about babies and childbirth and all that stuff.

Angela: Life.

Artist: Yeah. Anyway, when it came to the kids, hey, "Work? Okay. No problem." [crosstalk 02:04:32] the kids.

Tina: Right, yes, why don't you go work, honey. I've got the ...

Artist: Yeah. Let me see. What was I going to say? Oh, I'm trying to think of what you might like. I didn't make any kind of mayonnaise thing because I'm not sure.

Tina: I'm fine with it just like that.

Artist: Okay. I have the typical stuff, so if you think of something you want. I'm going to wash some cherries and some grapes too, so you have that as well, right?

Angela: Dessert. I love some cherries.

Tina: One of my favorite things since I've been here other than my moon boy is watching you cut that pita.

Artist: It's the little things. [crosstalk 02:05:19]

Tina: You were like, okay, exactly half, exactly quarter, exactly eight. I love that you did this. You cut really meticulous cut and then you went ...

Artist: Okay.

Tina: I was like, if we could have a video of that, that was awesome.

Artist: Now, you're making me really worried about my every little move, Tina.

Tina: That was hilarious. Look at that. The symmetry, it's hilarious. That's awesome.

Angela: I don't know what you're talking about, Tina. There's no other way to cut a pita.

Artist: I'm going to tell you there's a problem. Now I'm going to be self-conscious.

Tina: No, it's just I love it. You're so authentic. Everything you said is how you act. I love it.

Artist: You're not bull shitting me [inaudible 02:06:03] coming out?

Tina: No, it hasn't gone off once.

Artist: Wow, that's pretty good. That's why I like that whole thing like, "John [inaudible 02:06:12]."

Angela: So fun.

Artist: Then he shows them to you. Oh my God. I could not stop laughing. I wrote him an email right away. I said, "Oh my God, John, you made me feel like a complete ass."

Tina: Right. [crosstalk 02:06:27]

Artist: I'm thinking about all the time that I wasted on food, the artist statement because the galleries want artists' statement. It's got to be really important. It's got to be impressive. You got to think about this a long time. You got to come up with something that's good [inaudible 02:06:43] use big words.

Tina: It's got to be introspective, right? [crosstalk 02:06:47]

Artist: Oh my God, he just blew that out of the water with that one simple little statement.

Tina: I think I would buy based on that alone.

Artist: What's that?

Tina: I think I would buy based on that alone.

Artist: Oh, right.

Tina: Like sight unseen, that's funny.

Artist: He's responsible for the national ads for Stoli when they were doing their liquor ad.

Tina: Oh, that's right. He's an ad guy. Is he a copywriter?

Artist: [crosstalk 02:07:13] 10 or 12 years. I'm not sure, but he's big time. I remember him as a kid. He had an absolute ingenious thing that he was putting together to go after Willie [inaudible 02:07:27]. It didn't work, but nonetheless it was still ingenious. But he was also a thinker. You could tell he always was thinking about stuff and very insightful, all that good stuff.

Tina: I came out of that world. Do you remember the agency he worked for?

Artist: No, I don't. [crosstalk 02:07:50] I think they were pretty well set up. I've got Wensleydale cheese if you want a piece of Wensleydale cheese.

Tina: You have to say it like Wallace and Gromit.

Artist: I know. I can't though. Only he can say it.

Tina: I love-

Artist: With apricot.

Tina: It's Tuesday, Gromit. Time for porridge.

Artist: All right, Angela, sit down.

Angela: Okay, bossy.

Artist: Yep, that's right. [inaudible 02:08:16]

Tina: Are our chairs the right distance apart?

Artist: Have you ever had Sweet Baby Jesus?

Angela: Oh, I say it all the time, but I haven't ever drank it.

Artist: It's a chocolate/peanut butter porter.

Tina: That's hilarious.

Artist: This one was mine. [crosstalk 02:08:32]

Angela: You like the craft beer? I had [inaudible 02:08:35].

Tina: I'm drinking out of it.

Angela: [crosstalk 02:08:35] I'll keep it close to me.

Artist: Okay, you got that one. [crosstalk 02:08:37] Anyway, just dig in. This is the tabouli. This is hummus. Hopefully you enjoy them. Then your burger's right there. Okay? [crosstalk 02:08:46]

Angela: Are you going to have a burger?

Artist: I am not.

Angela: Oh okay.

Artist: I am not because-

Tina: That's your plate.

Artist: I will not eat until after I expend tremendous amounts of energy from playing basketball tonight.

Angela: Oh, okay.

Artist: I have a medium light lunch, okay?

Angela: What was the height of your basketball career? What was your moment?

Artist: My moment, that's a good question because I'd like to tell somebody that. My moment was we played against Cheney State who was national ranked. They were coached by John Cheney who was a famous coach who coached at Temple University for a number of years before he retired. Anyways, we upset them and I had a great game. That was my basketball highlight moment, and then just getting our high school team to the county championship was also a big thrill for me as well. That was good.

Angela: You played down low obviously.

Artist: I played as a forward.

Angela: A forward?

Artist: Yeah, both in high school and college. [inaudible 02:09:52]

Tina: I was point guard. That's all [inaudible 02:09:57].

Artist: You played in high school?

Tina: I did.

Artist: Did you play in college?

Tina: No.

Angela: Sorry, Bubbe. [crosstalk 02:10:04]

Artist: Did you get a lot of playing time in high school? Oh wait. You know what?

Tina: Now that I think about it, it might even have been I think it was the later years of junior high. I didn't try out in high school because I wasn't tall enough.

Artist: I forgot the cheese [inaudible 02:10:20]. Thank you. It's great though; it's crumbly; it's dry.

Angela: It looks good. [crosstalk 02:10:25]

Artist: Which one do you need?

Angela: The fork?

Artist: Oh yeah, I'm sorry.

Angela: Thank you.

Artist: Do you want it to spike it? There's some pineapple juice there. I have apple juice if you wanted to spike your [crosstalk 02:10:35].

Angela: Can I have [inaudible 02:10:35] cheese? That cheese looks great.

Tina: I'll cut you a piece.

Angela: Thanks.

Tina: You want a spike?

Angela: Sure.

Artist: Got some apple juice.

Tina: I was just good at stealing.

Angela: Thank you.

Tina: That was my thing.

Artist: What's that?

Tina: Stealing.

Angela: Stealing the ball?

Tina: That was my thing.

Artist: Oh, stealing.

Tina: Stealing the ball. One time I stole it by myself, dribbling down. All I had to do was make a layup and I was so excited because everybody was cheering.

Artist: I know what's going to happen.

Tina: I threw it over the backboard, all the way over the backboard.

Artist: Yes.

Tina: Then all I had was the substitution clock and I did it.

Angela: I might have to ask your wife for this recipe.

Artist: What?

Tina: The fish?

Angela: Yeah.

Artist: Oh, okay. [crosstalk 02:11:18] She found it just the other day actually. She was testing it. She made this watermelon cilantro salsa [crosstalk 02:11:26] that went on top of this. Then something else, so that was all in the burger. I said, "I don't know if they want the bread and stuff like that."

Angela: Not needed, that's delicious. Is she a vegetarian?

Artist: No. It was really good. The problem was the cilantro is so overpowering, so that the subtlety of the fish taste I thought got a little lost. She agreed and we both said this is really good.

Angela: It is really good.

Tina: Agree.

Artist: I make the tabouli and all. I don't know if it's too garlicky.

Angela: No, it's perfect. Tell me about the cheese again. I missed the part about-

Artist: Wensleydale. What's interesting about it is it's dry.

Angela: Oh my God. I love that.

Tina: I know, me too.

Artist: Dry and crumbly, but it's creamy.

Tina: What's in it?

Artist: That's apricot in there.

Angela: That is so good. I've never had cheese like that before.

Artist: Wensleydale. [crosstalk 02:12:30] I know it's the same thing. You think of Wallace and Gromit immediately.

Tina: You can't not.

Artist: Now, have you ever heard the ...

Tina: Story of the puppets?

Artist: No, the Python, the cheese shop sketch?

Tina: Yes.

Artist: Yeah, if you're not [crosstalk 02:12:48]. No, this guy goes into a cheese shop to get cheese. He's asking for cheese and they don't have it. "We don't have that one, sir. We're fresh out." Of course, he has nothing [inaudible 02:12:58]. The whole idea is why are you calling this a cheese shop. It's abundantly clear there's nothing here.

Tina: I went straight to dead parrot. I knew that one.

Artist: Yeah, but if you've never seen that. Have you seen the Holy Grail?

Angela: A long time ago in college. I was exposed to it, but I don't remember it. I need to revisit all of that.

Artist: But you know what? Here is what I learned. Some things are just a different time and a different place. While you might find it funny, some kids will get it today and they will be amused by it. My son loves it; he things it's funny and so forth and stuff. But there's other people, it just doesn't [crosstalk 02:13:36].

Angela: Resonate?

Tina: My mom.

Artist: Nothing.

Angela: Yeah.

Artist: Nothing, and yet the hardest I ever saw my mother laugh was when I said, "Come on, Mom. Watch this with me." It was the Holy Grail. When that Black Knight scene-

Tina: What part?

Artist: Oh my God, she was laughing so hysterically. [crosstalk 02:13:55] I never saw her laugh any harder than when she laughed at that.

Tina: She liked the absurd.

Artist: She did, but there are other times though where it was Python and she wasn't amused by it at all. Yeah.

Tina: My mom thought it was racy, the show, because they had that broad boob, the cut-out thing?

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: She's like, "What are you watching?"

Artist: Yeah.

Tina: Just a funny, silly show, Mom.

Artist: Some oil, do you want to put some oil on the-

Tina: Definitely. What was the quote when who died? One of them died and they got a quote from the rest of them. They said, "Oh, it's just like him to do something like this to get attention."

Artist: You mean Graham Chapman, yeah. He died of AIDS.

Tina: Their quote was something flippant.

Artist: Yeah, they had this show and they have an urn with his ashes and they knock it over.

Angela: Oh my gosh.

Artist: Of course, they weren't his ashes.

Angela: I was going to say, okay.

Artist: They set it out.

Angela: Probably wouldn't have minded.

Tina: They tried to put it back in the [crosstalk 02:15:04].

Artist: All that stuff, the absurdity of it. I remember a group of them carried his casket together.

Tina: I honestly was worried that they would do ... I guess not with the real thing.

Artist: How long was their show? An hour? Hour and a half? What?

Tina: It was a good hour and a half. The thing I loved is they played clips and told us funny things that were happening behind the scenes.

Artist: Oh, from their experiences.

Tina: Mm-mm (affirmative).

Artist: Did they talk about what they're doing currently?

Tina: No, but I will tell you if I had to predict the lifespan of Cleese over Eric Idle, it'd be a 10 year difference. John Cleese looked horrible, huge belly. Eric Idle looked like, "I eat fish every day and I'm on a Mediterranean diet." But not they didn't say anything.

PART 4 OF 5 ENDS [02:16:04]

Angela: No, they didn't say anything about what they're doing really, but they were very, very, very, very funny and just constant low giggle and then roar, low giggle.

Bruce Chapin: Are you familiar with John Prine?

Angela: A little bit.

Bruce Chapin: I really like him a lot.

Angela: I like his storytelling, some of the live stuff when he's talking about, what's the one song on love? I can't think of the name of it.

Bruce Chapin: Is it John Prine or Tom Leeds?

Angela: No, it's John Prine, but he's talking about-

Speaker 7: Heard the name, not familiar.

Angela: My gosh, I'm going to have to look it up. Hold on. Give me a minute. Maybe it'll come to me. What?

Speaker 7: You okay? Did you need something? Hi, you are so cute.

Angela: Do you like Nick Cave? Do you listen to Cave at all?

Bruce Chapin: I'm familiar, but I don't have a lot of his stuff. I remember him from-

Angela: I put him in the same.

Bruce Chapin: He was in Wings Of Desire I believe.

Angela: I love that movie. That's my all time favorite movie.

Bruce Chapin: With Bruno Ganz.

Angela: I love that movie.

Bruce Chapin: It's good. It's good.

Angela: Is it two parts?

Speaker 7: They have-

Bruce Chapin: Yep. I got to give it another look. I haven't seen it in such a long time and I know it deserves another look.

Angela: It's still, you'll see something and it'll speak to you in a different way.

Bruce Chapin: Then, Peter Falk is in it too.

Angela: Right, right, combo.

Bruce Chapin: I'm like, "What the hell is he doing in here?"

Angela: I know, right?

Bruce Chapin: It has Peter Falk too, right?

Angela: Right.

Speaker 7: I don't remember that at all.

Bruce Chapin: I just remember, I have the soundtrack.

Angela: I do too.

Bruce Chapin: I have the soundtrack, but my favorite movie in that foreign genre with the soundtrack is Amelie.

Angela: That is also one of my favorites.

Bruce Chapin: Right? Isn't it awesome?

Angela: It's amazing.

Bruce Chapin: It's my daughter's favorite movie.

Angela: When she sticks her hand in the-

Bruce Chapin: My gosh.

Angela: I love that.

Speaker 7: When she takes the blind man through the street.

Bruce Chapin: My God, everything about that movie-

Angela: Everything about it.

Bruce Chapin: The soundtrack is incredible.

Angela: Have you ever seen Laolo? Have you seen that? What was the other one that I really liked too at that time period?

Speaker 7: Did you see Shape Of Water? I loved it.

Bruce Chapin: It was good.

Speaker 7: My mom was like, this is my mom the entire movie, "Oh my God, oh my God, that's absurd. Oh my God." I even think she crossed herself.

Bruce Chapin: That's the thing with his movies. You have to be willing to let go and just immerse yourself in whatever and not try to be too analytical.

Speaker 7: My mom is devout Catholic bible study.

Bruce Chapin: You can try, but I liked his Pan's Labyrinth much, much better. That was totally a phenomenal movie.

Speaker 7: I was happy to see that Shape Of Water won though. I was like, "All right."

Angela: This one, he's talking about his wife. He's talking about, what was the name of it?

Bruce Chapin: This is John Prine?

Angela: It is John Prine.

Bruce Chapin: He just-

Speaker 7: He doesn't believe you, Angela.

Angela: I know. I know. I'm going to find it.

Bruce Chapin: He just put out another album after 13 years and he had a stroke I guess a number of years ago. His face is all sagged on the one side, but he feels he sings better now and his new album is good. He just writes amazing lyrics that are really profound, but at the same time so simple. You're like, "How'd he do that?" He does the Hello And There song, which is about the age when he has the, sorry.

Angela: It's The Other Side Of Town. It's The Other Side Of Town. That's the name of the song. He talks at the end of the version I listened to.

Bruce Chapin: There's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes, the drug addiction. The way he puts things together is amazing. His best album that I like is the one where he's doing the duets. It's called In Spite Of Ourselves.

Angela: Iris Dement.

Bruce Chapin: He's singing with a couple different ladies and stuff. That whole album is just phenomenal. I like that one.

Angela: Did you play an instrument ever?

Bruce Chapin: I tried to, but then I couldn't get past half notes or something. I gave up.

Speaker 7: I was going to say then you made something out of it.

Bruce Chapin: I tell you it was like I would sell my soul to be a musician. What a gift.

Angela: Really.

Bruce Chapin: What a gift, right?

Speaker 7: I could smack you.

Angela: It's something he hasn't mastered yet.

Speaker 7: I know. It's just funny.

Bruce Chapin: I mean I'm in awe of musicians. What a blessing.

Angela: Especially banjo players.

Bruce Chapin: Anything, what a blessing to be able to let that flow out of your body at the speed and the, I don't know, once again, the effortlessness.

Speaker 7: There's a harmony to it, not musically, physically.

Bruce Chapin: I always wondered why it was my brain couldn't do that. It would just get tied down into some kind of engineering thing where it'd just come to a standstill. I always appreciated musicians and I always loved music.

Angela: Can I ask you a very, very personal question?

Speaker 7: You can't say no now.

Angela: It has to do with your brother. You know how you hold memories and you also, what's your one memory of him and you? What replays in your head?

Bruce Chapin: There's many things. I think what I liked, what I remember about my brother was that he would get so passionate about figuring something out engineering or figuring it out. Everything, all his energy went into this emotionally, physically, intellectually. It was nice when it went well, but when it went south he would just go off. I remember him trying to build this thing for some girl. Of course, there's the incentive, the girl. He was trying to make this special lamp. I forgot all about napkins. This special lamp-

Angela: Thank you.

Bruce Chapin: It required a lot of engineering and some special materials. He spent hours and hours on it and I'd always go down and check, "How's it going," and all that good stuff. "Get the fuck out." I mean that's the way it was. I was the annoying-

Angela: Concentration.

Bruce Chapin: Annoying little brother, but when it went south he just took the thing and he just smashed it up. He just broke it to shreds and then left it.

Angela: That's heartbreaking.

Bruce Chapin: I know. I remember that, but what I got out of that was just his intense passionate nature of him doing things. Instead of being channeled in such a way that it could be more positive and understanding himself more, it went south and negative. I wasn't smart enough to know what the hell was going on. Neither were my parents.

Angela: It's hard.

Bruce Chapin: Another time it wouldn't go well and he'd put on a whole fireworks display. He engineered all these pyrotechnics out in the backyard.

Angela: That's cool.

Bruce Chapin: It was like a little fireworks show just with crappy crude stuff, nothing like you have today.

Speaker 7: He had the same want to figure it out, thought of something, had to express it.

Bruce Chapin: No, here's how my family went. In terms of book smart, my sister and my brother got it all. I had to work for everything. My brother got, he got 800 on the SATs for his math and very high on verbal. He could've gone to any school pretty much he wanted to. Then, he had this other thing where he was into music and he thought he could become a musician as misguided as that was. He had some talent, but nothing.

You could see where his destiny if he wanted to get back into some kind of academic thing with the engineering and so forth like that, he would've been, I mean I'm sure he would've been fine and all that good stuff. He was into the music, becoming in music. He was getting into drugs. He was into drugs. I mean all that didn't help, but we were just starting to reconnect and then he had this girlfriend.

This is my best assessment. I'm just conjecturing, but he had this girlfriend who was his girlfriend, but also part of the free love generation. That did not jive with his notion of what your girlfriend is or should be. That was the trigger. I remember him being interested in chemistry because of my dad.

He would tell my dad, "I need these chemicals," and my dad would get them. Then, he'd be down there messing with stuff. I remember him, "Come on out here." I'd go out and he'd take this. He had some powder that he made and he put it on a rock. Then, he took a sledgehammer and he hit the powder and it made this huge explosion. I'm like, "That's cool." Anyways-

Angela: I like childhood. I like asking childhood questions.

Bruce Chapin: I remember those moments and I remember him beating me up, that kind of stuff, not really vicious beat downs. At the time, you think they're vicious beat downs, but they're not.

Speaker 7: Can I ask you a weird question? Let me rephrase that. I'm going to ask you a weird question.

Bruce Chapin: I was going to say, no, I am tired of weird questions.

Speaker 7: Turn that thing off.

Bruce Chapin: No, you cannot ask me anymore questions.

Speaker 7: The time-

Bruce Chapin: Has that been going this whole time?

Speaker 7: Yes.

Bruce Chapin: You're going to relisten to this?

Angela: She will.

Bruce Chapin: My god.

Speaker 7: My longest was four hours. You're fine.

Bruce Chapin: I really have actually no respect for you, but also the greatest respect for you.

Speaker 7: Actually, I can't wait to shut the doors and revisit you guys.

Bruce Chapin: My wife said, "Do you get to look at it after she's done?" I said, "Yes." "Oh, that's good," because she was worried that she would print something that-

Speaker 7: That's what the contract was all about.

Bruce Chapin: No, I know.

Speaker 7: It protects you guys. It's good.

Bruce Chapin: I said, "Hey, if she can make a ton of money off of the story or whatever, God bless her." It's fine.

Angela: All fingers crossed.

Speaker 7: Who knows? Do you-

Bruce Chapin: Speaking of which, I'll entertain your question first and then I'll do my followup questions.

Speaker 7: Good, it's a yes or no question. You want more? We're going to eat all your food.

Bruce Chapin: That's all right.

Angela: My gosh.

Bruce Chapin: We can get more.

Speaker 7: Do you know if he was on a sleep medication?

Bruce Chapin: My brother?

Speaker 7: It was before the time of it, but I just wanted to-

Bruce Chapin: I don't think so. I don't he was on any kind of meds. He was just smoking weed. I don't think he was doing anything harder than weed.

Speaker 7: They hardly even consider that drugs anymore.

Angela: No.

Bruce Chapin: I really don't know. I mean I wasn't able to see any. I don't remember. Maybe it wasn't an issue. Maybe there was nothing in his system. I tend to think that there was nothing in his system.

Speaker 7: I tried for a year for a full tox and could never get it.

Bruce Chapin: I'll tell you I went on my Forensic Files binge with my daughter. After looking at that, man, wow, you just never know. You never know. I mean I think if you ever watch that show, there's so many of those incidents where they did go back and now they did find crystals in the kidneys or whatever.

Speaker 7: Right, that stuff can consume you.

Bruce Chapin: Then, the hair, it was not a suicide.

Speaker 7: Suicide.

Angela: Right, right.

Bruce Chapin: Or it was not something else. It was murder.

Speaker 7: What I felt really bad about is I told you we were separated. He had a girlfriend and she found him. She's a nurse.

Bruce Chapin: Wow.

Speaker 7: The guilt, one, she has that in her head. Two is the guilt of she didn't see it coming because it was, and he did it violently, right, a shotgun thing in the bathtub. We met that day.

Bruce Chapin: That was the first time you met her?

Speaker 7: We're still friends actually. My daughter goes and sees her periodically.

Bruce Chapin: How old, your daughter was-

Speaker 7: 10.

Bruce Chapin: She's 10. She was eight at the time?

Speaker 7: No, she's 11 now. It happened last year. She was 10.

Bruce Chapin: I was going to say how was your relationship at that point?

Speaker 7: Mine and his or hers and his?

Bruce Chapin: No, your daughter, wow.

Speaker 7: We were a week on, a week off.

Bruce Chapin: Wow, wow.

Speaker 7: He did it when he had her. I'm feeling lucky because he could have, in his state that he was in, thought that she was also better off. It was lots of things.

Bruce Chapin: My God.

Speaker 7: He called me and said, "I'm not feeling well. Can you get Elizabeth?" Then, he called his girlfriend and said, "I have Elizabeth. Don't come over tonight."

Bruce Chapin: Wow, wow.

Speaker 7: I mean Angela knows. You can ask it. They were extremely close, extremely close. It was weird, no note, but this is what I was going to tell you. When the police got there, when she called the police, the police got there and they-

Bruce Chapin: Left it, right?

Speaker 7: They treated her as, "Don't touch." She's like, "Well, I just walked." I mean it was very clear, the gun I mean, but the guy was like, "You stay over there. Don't touch anything." She was like, "Wait a minute. I'm about to fall apart here."

Bruce Chapin: They have to be the first one because inevitably it does come down to that.

Speaker 7: She did go over and touch him because she's a nurse. I mean it was fairly obvious, but she wanted to know how long and all.

Bruce Chapin: The police are absolutely correct. When you see the forensic thing, you can't accept anything.

Speaker 7: She said it was so weird though because she was looking for, "Oh, they're here, good, comfort," and they were like, "Stand over there." She was like, "Oh, oh," and then she remembered they don't know that we're, which door did you-

Bruce Chapin: The policeman is not doing his job if he doesn't-

Speaker 7: No, it was like, "Which door did you come in? How long have you been here?" Her mind wasn't there. It was-

Bruce Chapin: Right, right.

Speaker 7: Interesting.

Bruce Chapin: Obviously, I feel for you and your daughter. It's just a never making sense thing and you have to find a way to live through it and somehow find some kind of peace amidst the anger and confusion. That's the only thing I can think of to say. Then, you have the fortunate thing where you can do and you are doing the therapy, which is huge for your daughter's sake particularly.

Speaker 7: I over, over, she's in Kate's Club, which is a group for that. Then, she's in her therapy. Actually, I think I'm going to take her to a psychiatrist, a doctor doctor, just because she said she started having some thoughts. I was like, "All right, right." I don't know. She's 11. I don't know whether that's just thinking through it because it was an event. You got to take all that seriously. How the hell did we get on this topic?

Angela: I asked the question, sorry, my fault.

Bruce Chapin: Back to that, what are you hoping that's going to come out of this project?

Speaker 7: This will lead us to one of the most important questions I wanted to make sure I ask. I feel like, and I told you in the beginning. I feel like everyone has this, and I hate to use the word artist, but has this thing inside of them, a compulsion to express whether it's words or athletic or whatever the expression of it is. It doesn't even necessarily have to be in the realm of art, but I think there's a big void in the art part of it.

I can go and be a causal runner or casual skater or casual whatever and nobody judges that. If you're trying to be an artist and you use that word, there's this automatic sniff out validation. Why do you get to say that and who said you are? Are you in this gallery or have you done this? There's all this. I feel like it's doing everyone individually a disservice in our society or world in general, a disservice by not encouraging versus squelching.

What I'm trying to get at is I want an average person with no art training to pick up this book and go, "Okay, okay, I can read about Bruce or I can read about Calvin or I can read about it. I'm socially awkward and I, speaking of Calvin." Or, "Oh, my dad did this and this influence and I do have this feeling because of my mother so I can get that out in some way."

I really want them to just read it and go, "I'm going to pick up a brush or maybe play with some clay," or whatever and feel the comfort of the book rather than the judgment of what normally comes with that. "Oh, I made something out of clay. Oh, that looks like shit." There's that. It's cool. I mean it happens when you're a little kid, "What is that?" "It's a lion." "Oh." I just want to get to that point where people feel like they can think out loud like you do.

Bruce Chapin: You're writing a book, wow.

Speaker 7: I am.

Bruce Chapin: That's quite a project.

Speaker 7: It is and it's been interesting even talking, there's 11 of you. There's 10 others of them and we're through four interviews. If we were looking at it in segments, it's 11 segments, but the path has been so much longer than just-

Bruce Chapin: It'll be interesting to see how you take the 11 and what you do with it collectively or individually.

Speaker 7: How do you intro something like that? It's starting to come-

Bruce Chapin: How much are you risking with this?

Speaker 7: Financially, I'm all right. Like your friend, I was in the advertising world. I handled a $26 million account. I was a big power person at an ad agency, traveled all the time, jetted all over the world shooting commercials, all that stuff, but it wasn't, my head was over here. I came out of that. In February, I quit. We quit each other I guess. I was there for seven years.

Bruce Chapin: Was it Falling Down with Michael Douglas? I quit my job and my job quit me.

Speaker 7: Quit me, I loved that movie actually. It was good, but I don't think there's enough of that. There's too much hamster wheel and not enough do I even want to be a hamster? You were brave enough. You were supported, your wife, your family.

Bruce Chapin: Right, when I was at RIT the guys in the woodworking, half of them were former engineers and lawyers and other professions who had enough. They wanted to do something.

Speaker 7: So far all of you guys are happy too right now and it's not that manic weird happy. It's that self-assured good happy.

Bruce Chapin: I mean-

Speaker 7: You don't want for anything.

Bruce Chapin: I mean certainly if I had to make money, I would press and make the money, but I'm very lucky to be in the position I'm in. I'm grateful for that too, but then I don't want a lot. I don't need a lot. I mean I could tone down and be fine. I have way more space, way more stuff than I need.

Speaker 7: Not that I'm expecting you to pick up a flag and get in this parade, but if you were, especially because you taught, if you were, knowing that you and I just talked about the purpose of the book or what I'm trying to get out of it. I'm not 100% sure. I'm like you like that. I'm just going to put it out there and see what happens.

Bruce Chapin: Do you have a publisher all lined up?

Speaker 7: I have about six different venues that I'm exploring. No, not one decided yet because some people think it should go art and I'm like, "I don't know," but then it has to. We're hashing that out.

Bruce Chapin: I see what you're working on then.

Speaker 7: It's like where do you-

Bruce Chapin: Who's the market for this so to speak?

Speaker 7: Where do you put it? I think it's a mistake to go just the art route, but yet it's going to live well there too. It might be that we market it different, micro market it so to speak, and then I have a couple friends at Amazon. Like I said, it's not that you have to pick up the flag and get in the parade. If you were talking to, whether it's words or not, what would you say to somebody if they were like, "I don't know. I've always wanted to paint, but I've never," or to a person like your mother who has it, but just doesn't, but it's there?

Bruce Chapin: I mean I guess my first thought is I go back to my teaching. One of my big goals for the kids was to understand each one of you is a creative individual. You have something creative to say whatever it might be. Maybe it's not in the visual. Maybe it's in some other form. It might be just how you cook or something like that.

I would try to make them understand that being human means being creative. It should be and can be being creative. That's the first obstacle. Once you say, "Well, I'm not creative," now you've already put the wall up. My goal was to hopefully get kids to understand that they shouldn't put that wall up to begin with and, yes, they can be creative in some form or fashion. It's the short, simple answer.

Speaker 7: I feel like kids are welching into that. They will be just because what do you think happens?

Bruce Chapin: The typical thing that immediately comes to my mind is the idea of drawing and stuff. The kids are just joyful. They're fine. What changes? It's either from their own internalization like, "Uh, that doesn't look like that so I must stink," or it's the adult with their comments or criticism, "That's a nice cow you drew." "No, it's a horse," that kind of thing. Those little things, and like with my son, I'm thinking he's probably did, I don't think it came from us. I think it was more a self kind of thing.

He does what he can't do and then he just shuts down a little bit, "I'm not very good at it," or something like that. I think it's a bit of both adult world and how it expresses its negative evaluations and then some self-evaluation. Once you're in seventh, eighth grade, you're really into understanding the realism part of it in your drawings and you're going, "Okay, yeah, I see that it doesn't look like what's there and so I guess I don't draw very well."

Speaker 7: What's funny is if you take some of the masters, Matisse, if you showed it to a little kid, they'd say, "That's horrible. That doesn't look like a man."

Bruce Chapin: Right, right.

Speaker 7: It's funny and they were talking about how-

Bruce Chapin: I'm going to let her loose. Just hold on. Here you go.

Speaker 7: The dog.

Bruce Chapin: You can go down here. It's messy down here.

Angela: Let me grab, my gosh, I just saw the cat in the door. That's awesome. Let me get my flash.

Bruce Chapin: Anyways, at the bottom of the stairs on the wall where you are are the switches that light up the basement.

Speaker 7: All the shows today, America's Got Talent and all that, they have people sing and then they vote or whatever. They said if Willie Nelson, who are some of the other ones? Bob Dylan, if they were on the shows today, they would never make it to the next round because they're not-

Bruce Chapin: Right, right, that's interesting.

Speaker 7: They were-

Bruce Chapin: Polished or something like that.

Speaker 7: Yes, what's her name? Janis Joplin, not going to make it.

Bruce Chapin: She's got a gravely voice.

Speaker 7: Yes.

Bruce Chapin: That's really interesting. Isn't that interesting? That's also sad and depressing.

Angela: Right.

Speaker 7: Right, because there's this manufactured ideal.

Bruce Chapin: You know what? I think that, not selling them short, their creative force would've come through someway somehow.

Speaker 7: 100% agree with you and, to me, that's what I'm trying to-

Bruce Chapin: I got you.

Speaker 7: Fan those embers because some people might think they're horrible, but can't help themselves and they've got little sketches on the sides of everything around their house because they're compelled. I just want that little nudge.

Bruce Chapin: Sometimes that's all it takes too. I think on my teaching career and they're going to, although I'm skeptical of this whole thing, but my former high school is going to recognize me for planting the seed so to speak.

Speaker 7: Perfect.

Bruce Chapin: The kids learning and this kind of stuff, it's a backhanded thing, but I won't go into the whole story with that. What I want to get to is the idea about you're a teacher. You planted the seed. You're the one that got him really going and then he went on to do this and that. Maybe, maybe, and that's a wonderful thing. Yes, there's truth to it and there's legitimacy to that, but you know what? It's no different than legitimacy of a teacher saying, "You're not going to amount to anything."

Speaker 7: Yes.

Bruce Chapin: Then, the kid says, "You know what? I'm going to show that bitch," or, "I'm going to show that asshole. I don't know what the fuck they're talking about." That's just as motivating as the teacher that said, "Hey, good job with that project you did."

Speaker 7: Right, you've got talent there. That's so funny. I was going to ask you can I give her a little one? She'll come in.

Bruce Chapin: I think he's outside. He's outside. We're good because that'll precipitate an-

Speaker 7: Altercation?

Bruce Chapin: Yes.

Speaker 7: Where's your-

Bruce Chapin: Right here.

Speaker 7: I was trying to see.

Bruce Chapin: Hey-

Speaker 7: Yes?

Bruce Chapin: Do you want, that's right. You can't take orders on a plane or would you want I guess orders if you wanted to-

Speaker 7: No, we're good. Do you know how much I love this? I don't know why.

Bruce Chapin: I'm glad you enjoy it. It makes me happy, makes me happy.

Speaker 7: It's funny because-

Bruce Chapin: I tried to, I had to work past. I had to work past that. For me, this is boring because you're making the same thing over and over again, but it's truly understanding just your reaction and that this is in somebody's home and they're going to see it on a regular basis. As a matter of fact, I just contacted through my Twitter thing this woman, Soyan Park, who's a jeweler who I met at the fair. She bought one of I think five Moonboy Dreamings that I had made.

Speaker 7: Wow.

Bruce Chapin: She said, "Yes, Moonboy Dreaming is doing just fine here in my living room." That's neat that that is in somebody's house and I like that.

Speaker 7: I also think we're on different trajectories of thought. Whatever sparked you to create that, you may be teasing something. Just when I saw him I was like, "Oh, there's just something there." I just didn't have the thought at the same time as you or it didn't come out the same, but there's something in it that I recognize. I love that. I mean I love that.

Bruce Chapin: It's 2:17. Do you know where you're-

Speaker 7: We got to go.

Bruce Chapin: Do you know what your timeframe is?

Speaker 7: Walk down there with me just in case she's-

Bruce Chapin: I'm going to print this out.

Speaker 7: Just the two pages and there was nothing in it you wanted-

Bruce Chapin: You can go down there and check.

Speaker 7: Nothing you wanted to modify in it?

Bruce Chapin: No.

Speaker 7: Most everybody was fine. One person had me take out the fictional part, but I didn't even notice it was in there. I love the rails. Angela?